Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ did not start in 1830. It really is very ancient. In fact, it goes all the way back to Abraham. And sometimes when we're reading the story of Abraham, we can get confused about like, sacrificing sons and pillars of salt and circumcision. But as I've been studying more, it really becomes so clear that Abraham's story is a story about covenant, new names, becoming a king and a priest. And it, it draws us back to our temple worship. So today we've brought on Jeff Bradshaw. Thanks for joining us today, Jeff.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: It's a true pleasure.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: So Jeffrey Bradshaw is you're probably one of the greatest scholars on the antiquity of the Latter Day Saint temple living today. And in addition to that, you've written myriad books on the Book of Moses and all sorts of things. And professionally, you are a senior research scientist of human machine cognition at the Florida Institute of. Oh, I missed it.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Human and machine cognition.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: There you go.
So you have a breadth of experience in a variety of fields, but obviously the field that we are most keenly interested today is the fact that you're a scholar of Latter Day Saint temples and the Book of Moses. And now you're tackling the Book of Abraham with two new volumes all on the story of Abraham. Can you tell us the titles of these two volumes and what they cover?
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah, the two volumes. One of them is the full treatment of the Genesis chapters of Abraham with some additional material brought in in part from Stephen.
[00:01:28] Speaker C: Those are the worst parts of the.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Book to at least give lip service to the Book of Abraham. We're hoping that others are going to continue to bring out some new material on that. I'm not as qualified on that. So that's chapters 12 through 22, more or less.
And then for those who didn't want to invest the time, the money, or the exercise into carrying the book, there's a shorter version called look unto Abraham and Sarah. And it contains most of the commentary, many of the pictures and some of the perspectives on those books. And the latter one is available now, it's paperback at an inexpensive price. And then the one that has my heart beating for it, it will hopefully come back from South Korea in mid March.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: The volume look unto Abraham is basically a verse by verse commentary of the Book of or the chapters in Genesis that cover Abraham's story and parts of the Book of Abraham. And then you have a volume that's really volume three of this much larger series called In God's Likeness and Image, which is a much more expanded version of this verse by verse commentary.
It is insanely exhaustive and comprehensive.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: Can I mention I discovered volume one of In God's Image and Likeness right after I got home from my mission. I was at Eborn Books in Salt Lake City in the mall and just kind of browsing the shelves and Eborn was the publisher and I think it just came out like 2011, 2010. When that first one came out, I think, right. And I was like, what on earth is this? And I pull out this giant tome off the shelf and I was like, this is awesome that there's all this stuff just on Moses. Oh my gosh. And so I just ate my heart out with your introductory material there or initial material there. Introducing us Book of Moses. And now here we are all these many years later, Jeff, sharing a podcast with each other as bff.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: So I'm so pleased. I want to say one other thing though. The pictures in front.
[00:03:20] Speaker C: Oh yeah.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: So there's, there's over 200 pictures I think in the IGIL 3 and quite.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: A few in the beautiful art, beautifully illustrated.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: It sold out in a month pretty much.
[00:03:29] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: 500 copies. So get your copy of IGL3 soon.
Pre order Eborn Books.
[00:03:36] Speaker D: So yeah, the whole set right now it's gonna be, it'll be a three volume set come March. Right. But the whole set, they're big, thick, very comprehensive tomes on Genesis and the book of Abraham or excuse me.
And what I actually really like about him is like they're, they're very comprehensive but like they're not just like an academic commentary. You put in like whole sections of just like here's general authority quotes about this stuff and here's just some quotes from, from Latter Day Saint scholars that might be useful and stuff. And so like as a, as a Sunday school teacher, as a gospel doctrine teacher, those kinds of resources are immensely useful. Right. To have there. And there are a lot of people.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: You want a few things that are true mixed in with all the other.
[00:04:21] Speaker D: Stuff mixed in with all the academic nonsen sense. No, just kidding.
But yeah, those kinds of things are really useful when you're trying to prepare a lesson on, on this sort of material. In addition to having like the cultural background, you'd go through a lot of like, sort of like the, the history of interpretation from an ancient all the way back to, you know, antiquity. Right. You, you, you've got the Second Temple and the rabbinic commentary and, and stuff like that. It's just, it's a very thorough and exhaustive sort of treatment on this material. So if that's what you're into, those big tomes are worth it. But if you'd rather just get the Cliff Notes, look unto Abraham and Sarah is also a great option and affordable.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: So obviously, because both of these volumes are pretty expansive and cover so much ground, we can't cover all of it today. But I do want to give viewers an insight into some of the really cool stuff they can look forward to if they do dive into these volumes. So I want to just open up the question, what on earth can the story of Abraham do to inform our own temple worship?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: That is a great question. I was kind of surprised when I got into itself, although I shouldn't have been, because you've at least written one article on temple themes in the book of Abraham. But it's equally true. In the book of Genesis, you can find essentially every ordinance from baptism, because baptism was there before circumcision was, according to Joseph Smith translation, clear up to having your calling election made sure in those chapters and everything in between.
And it's interesting because that was translated. The Joseph Smith translation came in 1830, so more than a decade before Joseph Smith got to Nauvoo and revealed those things to the saints.
So it is inspiring to me that I can look there and find not only a validation of Joseph Smith as a prophet who knew what he was doing from almost the very beginning of his ministry, but also I think I can look to Abraham not only as an exemplar of kindness and hospitality, generosity, faithfulness in generous terms, but through the Joseph Smith translation, realize he of course knew about Jesus Christ, as did the Nephites, long before he came. And he also received every ordinance that we have the privilege of receiving. And the meaning of those ordinances is laid out for us in clear style in Genesis.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: Okay, so walk us through. I mean, most people are familiar with the term Abrahamic covenant, and that really starts to take shape in around Genesis 12, and then it continues through Genesis 15 and 17. So what is the Abrahamic covenant that.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Is so great that you said that? Well, I always, you know, had read from other commentators, it's about the promise of land and posterity and stuff. And I kind of got lost in that. And I was really grateful when President Nelson put it into words. He essentially said the Abrahamic covenant is the same thing as the new and everlasting covenant. And from what study I've done, I'm convinced that it is also. And maybe President Nelson said as much is identical to what we call the oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. If you look at section 84, I have a book on that called Temple Themes in the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: You know, most people we have on the show say have a paper on this, but you say you have a book.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: You have a book. Yeah, putting us to shame here.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: If you look around now, I'm losing, I think around verse 32, you see, you sense you've got the initiatory. You've got the priesthood of Aaron and of Moses, which represents Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. You have the seed of Abraham discussed there, which is of course the eternal marriage covenant. And then you have the church and the kingdom, which is an allusion to becoming a king and a priest and finally and receiving the kingdom, or let's just say the election, I think it says in there. So all those are there. Let's see, where was I starting? So the Abrahamic covenant is nothing more nor less than that covenant. The ordinances along the covenant pathway which we've been taken.
It's all under the rubric of obedience, of course, because we're being obedient to all those covenants. But it is really the pathway to eternal life, not only making those covenants, but being with them. That's what I'd say in a nutshell.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: One addition that I think our Book of Abraham gives us, that's very significant for the Abrahamic covenant. We talk about the Book of Abraham teaches us about Kolob, about the premortal council, about the creation. We did an episode on this, of course. Right. But we sometimes overlook Abraham chapter two, which has God appearing to Abraham in a theophany and a vision and sort of inaugurating the Abrahamic covenant. And there it is explicitly expanded to include what it says, the blessings of the gospel or salvation for all people. Right. The blessings of salvation, even that of eternal life. So, and priesthood is invoked, right, where it says, and in thee and thy seed parentheses, that is thy priesthood. Right? These blessings shall go to the earth. So we, we have an explicit expansion on that where, yes, it includes promises of land for your posterity and safety for them and things like that. But if you all, if all you have is Genesis, that's kind of as far as it goes, right. With our restoration perspective, that's crystallized in section 84 and in the book of Abraham and the section 132, by the way. Right. Of course, section 132 articulates this as well, that the blessings of salvation and exaltation are bound up in The Abrahamic covenant as well.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: And isn't it a witness of the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith that he could again Translate Genesis in 1830, translate the book of Abraham whenever exactly he did that?
[00:09:54] Speaker C: Well, I'm pretty sure chapter two, he gets 1835, at least up to the middle of chapter two. So it's in that time period and.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Then revealed a temple ordinances to the Saints in 1842. And to me, it's one consistent picture. That covenant is a thread that goes through all. And the ordinances that go with it, the ones you mentioned and so beautifully explained, so consistently explained across all of Joseph Smith's ministry.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: So I know when Latter Day Saints make covenants today, whether it's in baptism or in sealing or in the endowment, it's usually taking the form of a ceremony, an ordinance where we're giving an oath that we're going to obey certain things and we promise to do certain things for God. But in the story of Genesis, we don't necessarily see that very explicitly in. Instead we have things like Abraham sacrificing a bunch of animals and splitting them in half and God shows up and then there's new names. Can you maybe help us connect what's happening with Abraham's covenant making that might help us make sense of our own covenant making today?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Yeah, very good. So obviously, I'm obviously going to very simplify things, but you see the covenant, the obedience showing up at the very beginning, don't you? With his obedience to God's command, he never speaks until.
I don't remember, is it chapter 15 or so? So he just wordlessly obeys without any mural or anything else.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Abraham does.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Abraham does it. Yeah. And then you go to sacrifice. You see that covenant showing up. He goes and builds altars all around at different. He in essence templifies. Well, that word has two meanings. One is the template and one is. It's a temple, the land of Canaan. By building altars at each place and then obeying the law of sacrifice, he then goes on. And it's a very elusive thing in the Bible where it talks about he saw into the future and was glad. But it's very clear that it's Jesus Christ, who he saw as the Redeemer in the next. I think that's chapter 15. If I'm not, I haven't forgotten chapter 14. You see him receiving the fullness of the priesthood. Joseph Smith is very clear about that. When he meets Abram, or you mean Melchizedek.
Abram meets Melchizedek. There, interestingly enough, Sarah isn't with him. And so that's another interesting mystery there. I tend to. You'll have to read what I wrote, but I tend to think that exceptionally, Sarah didn't receive her blessings of that nature later.
And there are some precedences in the early church history that go with that. But he received everything up to the fullness of the priesthood by which he was made a king and a priest under the hands of Abraham. Joseph Smith is very clear about that.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Under the hands of Melchizedek.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Under the hands of Melchizedek, yes. Thank you.
And then what happens? And Jewish writers pretty much agree with this, that that promise that he received after he sacrificed Isaac was a definitive promise. It was something different than he'd ever had before. He had fulfilled covenant. We can call it consecration, can't we?
And was willing to sacrifice Isaac because it was commanded of the Lord. And so the Lord made him that ultimate promise of eternal life, confirmed in every respect.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Okay, interesting.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: And I'll say one other thing. It's interesting. Some Jewish commentators and some actual pictorial representations actually seen Isaac as having died.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: There's a long tradition about that, that Isaac was killed and resurrected.
And there's an interesting sort of subtext there, as obviously, typologically, Christologically, we can read that in interesting ways, but makes it all the more miraculous even if you don't read it typologically.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: And there is a painting in Dura Europos Synagogue there of Isaac actually going through the veil and a hand outstretched to him, representing that, reminding us that that death and resurrection, if it occurred in the time of Isaac, could have been a ritual rather than a literal death and resurrection, which is kind of what we go through in our endowment.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: So Melchizedek, that is a very short passage in Genesis. And most Christians and Jews have speculated a lot like, who was this Melchizedek? But we get a lot more in the. In the Joseph Smith translation. But what you said was really interesting, that it seems to be representing Abraham having the fullness of the priesthood. Could you explain more about what you mean there?
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, even the Bible is quite clear. It mentions very clearly that he was a king and priest. And of course, sort of one of the things is, what is going on here? Joseph Smith specified, which I can't quite reconcile it with Alma 13 in the book of Mormon because we also get a lot of good information there. But Joseph Smith essentially said he was not a king of any country.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: How can you be a king without.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: Being a king of A king. It was entirely a spiritual matter. In other words, so we know that that really had to do with the priesthood and Joseph Smith. I closed one of my articles on that or the chapter on that with something that Joseph Smith said, the culminating statement of a sermon that Joseph Smith made that when he got done with Melchizedek. And Joseph Smith does say he received the fullness of the priesthood elsewhere, but he says he has Abraham, who says, now I a priesthood harkening back to the book of Abraham. So he had received then, in essence, the ultimate blessings of the priesthood from Melchizedek.
[00:15:27] Speaker C: At that point, I'll just mention a funny little anecdote. And this is not in any means to belittle our Christian or Jewish friends of other faith traditions. But when I was doing graduate work on the patriarchal narratives we were covering, Abraham was one of our major focuses. And a big part of our study was on the reception of the Abraham stories in later antiquity, right from the Second Temple period onward. And we had the syllabus, we were looking through it and, you know, we're talking about obviously Isaac and Ishmael and Hagar, all the standard stories, Sodom and Gomorrah with Lot. And our. My professor, who was a devout Catholic, he said, you know, we're just going to have to skip Melchizedek because, number one, we don't really like, know what to do with him. And number two, there is so much material about him later in later reception, meaning people. Angeline didn't really know what to do with him, right? Like he just. He kind of shows up out of Nowhere in Genesis 14. Why is he a kohen, a priest? Why is he a priest to El Elyon, God Most High? Why is he blessing Abraham? Why is Abraham giving him tithing? It's so weird, right? And so my favorite tradition from Qumran is that Melchizedek is like a godlike figure, right? A deified, quasi deified figure. It's really interesting. So we is not, I think, should be very grateful to Joseph Smith for, I should say to God for restoring through Joseph Smith these really important details about Melchizedek. Because otherwise it's like. Well, I don'. Know, it's weird. In the Psalms, thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. What's going on with that? There's just all these little weird strands. I think Joseph Smith very beautifully brings it all together. And in your commentary on it, you've been very helpful in collecting what Joseph Smith and others have taught on this to help us get a bigger picture for it.
[00:16:59] Speaker D: I think it's interesting. You know, Melchizedek's just a very enigmatic figure in the Old Testament and even the New Testament. Right. But, yeah, in the Second Temple period, Judaism and early Christianity, there's this. This, like, proliferation of traditions, and there's another figure who's like that in our scriptures, and that's Enoch.
[00:17:17] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker D: And the restoration fills out the picture on both of those figures. Right. And of course, we won't get into it today because it's beyond the scope, but Jeff here has done a ton of work on the Enoch material in the Book of Moses as well.
Both enigmatic figures, both. Lots of, like, a very rich ancient tradition around them that has a lot of points of tangency with what Joseph Smith restored.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: When I was studying that in depth, the Melchizedek verses about.
In the Joseph Smith translation were, in essence, using Enoch as the prototype for Melchizedek's priesthood all through it. So I could go back and be lazy and just quote some of the.
[00:18:00] Speaker D: Enoch material, reuse some of that to.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Explain what was going on with the various powers of the priesthood that were given to those who had the fullness of the priesthood in Melchizedek's time. Because Enoch, the Order of Enoch, they called it, he was the great prototype for those things.
[00:18:14] Speaker D: So you're saying the Melchizedek priesthood could also be called the Enochic priesthood?
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Yeah, we only call it Melchizedek because we have a revelation saying we'll call it after Melchizedek because he was such a great priest in this priesthood. Right.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: And out of reverence to the divine name cannot have repetition so much. The sacred words Son of God, and we Latter Day Saints understand there's a sacredness to those words, Son of God, that we wouldn't want to repeat too often.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Okay, so clearly the Epistle to the Hebrews mentions Melchizedek as well, almost in a prototypical way of Jesus Christ. And we have these Second Temple traditions around Melchizedek. But, like, as you guys have referenced, Joseph Smith in the Joseph Smith translation kind of brings those together really well. And you've set out all of those. These materials in a way that really alludes to the temple in a lot of ways. We talked about the fullness of the priesthood.
But what can we learn about, like, the sacrament from the Melchizedek story?
[00:19:11] Speaker B: The sacrament's an interesting ordinance.
When I was a child, I always learned that it was there to renew our baptismal covenant. And so I really appreciated something that Neil Anderson gave in some. Elder Neil A. Anderson gave in some instruction to leaders. It's online, you can find it. He said we ought to be able to think of the sacrament as a renewal of all our covenants, covenants that we've had so far. So it's kind of a nice thing. In fact, in the Valentinian literature, it talks about it as a repeated maintenance ritual. Isn't that interesting? And that's sort of what I think of it as. So whatever point you are in your life, you can come to that and maintain your closeness to God in renewing all your covenants.
We know also that in the ancient temple it was associated with the showbread. Okay. And that there's some interesting allusions there. We won't go too much into that. But I'll say that in the context of Melchizedek's ordinance with Abraham, that was done in conjunction with an ordinance of the Melchizedek priesthood that goes back to the times of the early church, where the sacrament was often administered in the temple under the direction of the presiding high priest there. So in a sense we can administer the sacrament under the authority of the Aaronic priesthood, of course, with the sanction of the keys of the Melchizedek, but also can be in a different context, given under the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood for certain kinds of temple like rituals. Well, when did Jesus, when do we have the account of when he administered the sacrament to his apostles?
[00:20:51] Speaker C: Yeah, Last Supper, Last Supper.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: And many of the apostles of modern apostles have taught us that it was in the context of giving ordinances, such as Washington of the feet and so forth. So what I learned about that is that we need to think about the importance of the sacrament in renewing all of our covenants. And that it has not only a sense of looking backwards on our baptism, but looking forward to those ultimate blessings of the Melchizedek priesthood and of the temple that we're all aspiring towards.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: There is a sort of covenant like context for what's happening in Genesis 14, because this is coming after the battle of. Is it the 14 kings or whatever? Right. Like this little local fracas between some kings there in the Levant and Abraham emerges victorious. King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine. This is verse 18. He was a priest, a Cohen of El Elyon, traditionally translated God most High. Right? He blessed, he being Melchizedek, blessed him. Abraham saying, blessed be Abram by God Most High, El Elyon, maker of heaven and earth. That's our Elkanah from the book of Abraham, by the way. El Con Aretz. Right.
And blessed be most high God who has delivered your enemy into your hands. And then after that, Abraham gives a tenth to Melchizedek. And then there's this back and forth with the king of Sodom over. He says, I'll give me some of the. The war booty as well, or whatever. Abraham says, well, no, I made a covenant. I promise I would not give even so much as a sandal. Right.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Lift my hand. He says, literally.
[00:22:19] Speaker C: Yeah, so. So there's. There's some kind of a covenant context happening here between the kings.
Right. From just the immediate story. So whatever has survived in our Genesis text, that's kind of the immediate context. And we have restoration understanding that kind of heightens the picture of the covenant significance of this blessing that Melchizedek is giving him.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: And it becomes again another instance of his obedience to God to respect Melchizedek.
[00:22:45] Speaker C: In a way, even his consecration by giving a tenth of everything to Melchizedek.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Okay, so we've touched on covenants, we've touched on the fullness of the priesthood. We touched on the sacrament. How do you see the initiatory playing out in Abraham's story?
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting.
We, of course, I think I can speak about this publicly. In general terms, we associate one part of the initiatory with the new name we receive. It's interesting that both Abraham and Sarah, or Abram and Sarai in that case, received a new name in chapter 17.
And number one, we're not told anything specifically about the ordinance. But to us who have more complete understanding of that ordinance, we can understand that at least by that time they had received that. And what's interesting is that most people who divide the story of Abraham and Genesis into two parts, they kind of divide the chiasm right there when the new name is given to them, realizing that they're taking on new identity and they've actually being ready now to go on to other covenants. What comes next?
We have Sarah's promise and Abraham's of posterity being fulfilled. And so they're ready now to become parents after having received, we assume, some blessings. And I'm assuming that the visit of the three messengers, and we are all familiar with the three messengers from other contexts to Abram and Sarah, after Abram himself had received the visit of Melchizedek, were to confirm those same blessings and with witnesses and more perhaps on Abraham and Sarah together. So we can Infer then with the new names, they received the initiatory. And then we can see the context in which they received together additional blessings that prepared them and to have a child, then their first child born in the covenant.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Okay. Almost like a prototype of a sealing ordinance that they're prepared, they're taking incremental steps all through that new and everlasting covenant.
[00:24:57] Speaker C: Yeah. First we have in chapter 17, God appears to Abraham. I'll give you a new name, Abraham. You know, you'll be a father of multitude. And it goes down. As for your Sarah, your wife, you will not call her Sarai. It's funny, he calls her Sarah first. As for Sarah, your wife, you will not call her a Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. And then going down further, Abraham, but what about the kids? God, right.
He says, here's Ishmael. He says, well, it's not going to be with Ishmael, it's going to be with Isaac. I'll make a covenant with Isaac. But then he says, but as for Ishmael, I will multiply and bless him too. So Ishmael is not left out of the equation here. So, yeah, we go from new names to children receiving covenant blessings. Right. Being sealed, having those blessings, sealed, if you will, on these children.
And I hope we don't overlook the fact that the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant given to Abraham and Isaac are practically identical with what they are for Ishmael, for Hagar and Ishmael.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:25:51] Speaker C: I will bless them and multiply them, you know, make them a great nation.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: That kind of thing, at what's given us in section 132.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, right, exactly. And then we can tie in section 132, where again, within its immediate context, okay, Ishmael gets some land, Isaac gets some land, that kind of thing. Isaac gets the birthright. But we know from section 132 there are sealing connotations to this for the eternities.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: And isn't it wonderful? And it's throughout the chapter that everybody, God is trying to bless everybody. He kind of arranges circumstances and marriages and children and things. And in the end, branches get grafted in and cut off and whatever. But in the end, everyone has that beautiful opportunity. And so I don't want to forget Ishmael. I'm glad you brought him up.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: And I'm glad you brought that up too, Jeff, because I know some Latter Day Saints today, and understandably who may have complex family situations where perhaps they have parents who are divorced, who are then remarried, perhaps they have adopted siblings. Right. Or, you know, whatever the case may be, they may wonder, well, you know, how is the ceiling going to work for us? Right. Because am I still sealed my first husband, even though got may have been sealed again or whatever, you know, And I think Abraham had a messy family situation, to say the least. And, and the. The narrative gives us a lot of details on that messy family situation, but the assurance is that they are all still part of the covenant. And I hope this doesn't sound like a cop out because I know it can be, but I don't mean it to be. But we do put our trust in God and our faith in him that he will work this out for us in the end. And we may not fully understand how this will work exactly, these sealing relationships in the eternity, but we have a sense that they are real, that they are powerful, and that those relationships will endure. And we put our faith in God's hands that he'll make that work for us.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: I think of Elder Eyring's statement where he talked about a family member that's troubled about their own family complexities. And he said to them, or was told by the Lord, I can't remember, but he said, family arrangements. You will be entirely satisfied with family arrangements in the next life. And I do believe that.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: I think Joseph Smith has. We have some statements to him attributed to him saying as much that God will not force these sorts of ceilings on anybody, whether single or plural ceilings. Right. As the case may be, that you will never be forced in a situation that you are not comfortable with, that these are privileges that are extended to you and that you are free to receive them as you can. And so we don't have to worry about. Yeah. Being placed in any kind of family situation that would be contrary to the fullest expectations of glory in the celestial kingdom can give for us.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: And while we're there, you mentioned earlier, I think it was you Neil mentioned about Lot and his descendants. Do you want to say anything about that?
[00:28:19] Speaker D: When Joseph Smith taught about the sealing ordinance, Right. He talked about it being a welding link. And it's something that. This is actually something I know John Thompson, who's one of the co authors on In God's image and likeness 3. By the way, this is something he talked a lot about when I was an institute student and he was my teacher. But the whole purpose of it and the introduction of temple ordinances for the dead and all of this is about creating welding links that link us all the way back through the generations to God and We were talking, before we hit record, we were talking about Lot. And, you know, his descendants are the Moabites and the.
Are the Edomites a part of that? I can't remember.
[00:29:00] Speaker C: Ammonites.
[00:29:00] Speaker D: Ammonites. The Moabites and the Ammonites. And we mentioned. You mentioned that, you know, eventually down the line, Ruth, a Moabite, becomes part of the lineage through which Christ and.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: King David, for that matter.
[00:29:13] Speaker D: King David? Yeah. King David is born through Ruth, and then so is, you know, Christ.
And so they're grafted back in. And then it's through this.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: The.
[00:29:23] Speaker D: The ordinances of the temple that from that point of being grafted back in, we can actually link back through the past generations. And so all of those generations in between Lot and Ruth are not lost. They're not lost causes. They can be through the process of temple ordinances and the ceilings and all of the work that can be done for the dead, we can create these welding links all the way back and ensure that through this process, they all can at least have the opportunity for salvation and be saved, right?
[00:29:54] Speaker B: So we could say to somebody, you've had a complicated family situation. We understand it, but so did Jesus Christ. He sealed and welded all the way back, and we'll seal and weld you to him.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: Could we perhaps take that a step further, briefly, and mention the fact that the story of Lot and his two daughters, it rightfully raises lots of eyebrows for a lot of people, right? This is the end of Genesis, chapter 19, where it narrates this, because essentially what you find out is these children are the product of incest, right? These daughters with their. With their father. Maybe there's something to say about the fact that in the long run, the sealing ordinances and the sealing power can heal that intergenerational trauma. You have these traumatic moments, even moments of abuse, right? Moments where families are hurt or disrupted through the action, unrighteous actions of certain people. But in the long run, God can sort of alchemize that. He can consecrate even that in a way to. To make it for our benefit. Or maybe I want to say he can heal that in the long run, right? Where we don't have to be defined by instances of abuse in our family or trauma in our family, where it can. Well, to quote the language of Lehi to Jacob, he will consecrate thine afflictions for thine gain, right? And that seems to be the long arc of this narrative here, by the narrating that David and Jesus come through this again. Traumatic, incestuous, you know, family line here.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: And I think about. Just take a different kind of instance. When Abraham had to say goodbye to Hagar and to Ishmael. You know, he was very sorrowful. I just feel very deeply when I read those verses. But God comes to him specifically and basically tells him that, don't feel bad for the lad. You know, it's all part of a larger plan that we only grasp a small part of. And so it's very clear that our sorrows in that respect, even when people are forced to separate or have terrible traumatic experiences, God will find a way to bring them back. And I've lived long enough that I've seen that happen so many times. I know that there's great joy when that happens.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: Well, one of the things you talked about at the very, very beginning is how Abraham eventually becomes a hero. But he starts out as an everyman, and he starts out having to have his own. His story begins with his own trauma where he's leaving his family. It's not just leaving his family. He's leaving his land, he's leaving his family, and he's leaving his religion and his God. And how disruptive that must be to be ripped from all of that, but doing it because, you know, he sensed that there was a greater path for him. And so he. He can very much sympathize and empathize with what he ends up having to do to Hagar and Ishmael. And yet he trusts in the Lord. And the Lord is able to consecrate that, to help him in his own journey to become who he needs to become. My question for you is, how has your own conviction and belief in the Gospel grown through studying the story of Abraham?
[00:32:42] Speaker B: I can think about that in several dimensions.
One, I felt, and this comes about the story of Abraham through the book of Hebrews. I felt socially and culturally alienated from the areas in the place I grew up. And I just said, you know, I just don't feel at home in this world I'm in. When I read the line in Hebrews 11 that talks about that Abraham and his followers confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on this earth. All of a sudden I realized I'm not supposed to feel completely at home on this earth. I mean, obviously I love the people around me, and I wish the best for everybody, but these things are not the permanent stay of my existence. My God, who I sense in me at every moment, is my mainstay. And that's where I can feel at home. I think, for Me too. It was very important to me because my father was a very Abrahamic man. We grew up home teaching, my brothers and I, and we would go and, you know, like, he was such a great example of hospitality. You know, we'd go traipse up the hill in the middle of the night to deal with plumbing problems in one of his home teaching families, or build a stairway for a widow, or there was a handicapped young man that we'd visit or even things even more drastic. I remember one time when my dad went out in the middle of the night and visited somebody in the holidays who was alone. And I happened to be standing in the hallway. He didn't have me come with him. I don't know what was going on. But their silhouettes there in the hallway impressed me so much because I could feel his love and caring for that person.
So I'm able to project what I my own experience onto Abraham. And I think that's what makes me feel so close to him.
And I'd say also I have to add that after Abram and Sarah become united and receive the full blessings and merit, the full blessings of what they receive through the priesthood and the ordinances, they're able to be mentioned together. You see, Abraham and Sarah. Sarah and Abraham together.
She's the only one that I know of who got a new name in the scriptures listed. And that's just very significant to me. I guess I read into that the joys I have in my own marriage and family. To think that they're no longer separate, but a unit. And we don't see that intimate story of a couple anywhere else but in Abraham that I can think of.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: That's really beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing your testimony and your knowledge with us about Abraham.
If you would like to learn more and dive into the story of Abraham, do pick up the book, look unto Abraham or the volume in God's image and likeness, Volume 3. Both of those are out right now. And remember that you can study very deeply in the gospel, but believe boldly, and we'll see you next time.
