Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, Stephen. So I was surprised to find out that Joseph Smith was the first presidential candidate to be assassinated while on the campaign trail. And Joseph Smith is the prophet and the president of the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And then he decides he's gonna run for president. Is he a megalomaniac? Is he just trying to reach for the stars? Is he auramaxing here or what's going on with his presidential campaign?
[00:00:23] Speaker B: He was just trying to make Nauvoo great again. Jasmine. No, just kidding. Before I answer that question here, and we discussed the book we're gonna talk about today, I want to register for the record that between the two of us, Neil and I, who's the more serious one for getting Joseph Smith elected to be president? Thank you very much.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I actually am putting my heart and soul into this, Neil, to get this man elected president. 1844. Thank you very much.
[00:00:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: I say Joseph Smith for president.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Joseph smith for president. 1844. I think this is actually the masthead on one of his campaign posts.
[00:00:54] Speaker C: Nice.
Sorry, I only vote Libertarian.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: And Stephen Moore, red. I wore blue. Very patriot. And Neil here is representing.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Boring.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: All right, well, so today we're talking about the book from Spencer McBride. He's a church historian called Joseph Smith for President. And it's talking all about Joseph Smith's presidential campaign.
So I think a lot of Latter Day Saints have heard that Joseph Smith ran for president towards the end of his life before he got martyred in Carthage jail. But not a lot of people really understand why. So, like, what's going on? What could lead a prophet of a new religious movement to say, I'm gonna now run for president and start to rule this new country?
[00:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Before we get to 1844, when Joseph Smith ran for president, we have to go all the way back to 1838.
So the Mormon War in Missouri happened, and the Latter Day Saints were. They had a little thing called an extermination order issued on them by Governor Boggs. And they were kicked out of the state by threat of violence. Some of them actually did die, in fact, actual violence and lost property, lots of other things.
So in 1839, after the Mormon War in Missouri, Joseph Smith did what the First Amendment of the Constitution says you're supposed to do, which is petition Congress for redress of grievances. Right. So he goes to Washington D.C. with other church leaders. They meet Martin Van Buren, the president, Little Van, as his political enemies at the time. Called him. I guess he really was like a little short guy. So they called him Little Van and they meet with Martin Van Buren and they brought redress petitions. These, these readdress petitions have been published by the Religious Study Center. We can put a link to them.
Almost 800 documents, affidavits and testimonies from Latter Day Saints saying how our property was stolen, we were physically, you know, assaulted, murdered, all this bad stuff. Right. So they bring that to Martin Van Buren and famously, Martin Van Buren says, we will do everything we can to help you, Joseph Smith. It's so terrible what happened to you Mormons. Missouri, we will use the federal army to redress these horrible, horrible injustices. And then it was happily ever after. Right, guys? Right.
I think that's what happened. No, of course, what really happened was Martin Van Buren infamously is reported to have said, oh, your cause is just, but there's nothing I can do to help you. Right.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Right.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Now, there's two ways to kind of look at that.
On the one hand, there is a question. In the 1830s and 40s, when does the federal government step in, into local state affairs, to local problems happening in the states?
So you can see it from that perspective. Well, was it politically or even legally available to that?
The interpretation that Joseph Smith walks away and the Latter Day Saints walk away with is that these guys are just craven, feckless cowards who aren't going to help us because they're too cowardly to step in to issue justice.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: So, I mean, I can certainly see the position of like, oh, federal government doesn't have jurisdiction or whatever at this point. But I mean, we're talking about the state militia of Missouri murdering its citizens, United States. You're saying the federal government has no jurisdiction to stop their own state from murdering their own citizens. If that's the case, then the federal government has zero power.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah. It's pointless. Right.
[00:04:00] Speaker C: It certainly was an active debate for sure, but it's not like there hadn't been people who had advocated for federal powers, expanded federal powers, and people who had actually taken action. Right. To like, I mean, under the Andrew Jackson administration, for instance, like in the 1820s, you know, he was, he was walking all over states rights.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: King Jackson they were calling him.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: He was the one who was expelling
[00:04:24] Speaker A: a lot of the Native Americans.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: And so there was, there was certainly precedent for, for the federal government taking actions like this.
And just, just for. I, I think helpful for some context is what they were asking Van Buren to do. They were petitioning Congress.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:42] Speaker C: Right. And they were just asking Van Buren to like in his what would we don't. They didn't call it the State of the Union at the time, but it was basically the equivalent of the State of the Union address, like support their petition for redress in his State of the Union address to Congress. That's all they were asking him to do.
And he wouldn't even do that. Right. And Joseph Smith, at least as Spencer McBride portrays it, Joseph Smith comes into Washington with like this very idealistic idea about.
Yeah.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: The United States government, Congress and like the principles.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: The lock.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: The independence idea.
[00:05:16] Speaker C: Yeah. And the, and principles that they, that they espouse. And then he kind of walks away jaded, like, oh, these are, these are politicians doing crazy.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Right. And he would be the last person to walk into Congress or D.C. and walk out a cynical, jaded person towards the government.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: So. Yeah. So Van Buren is basically playing politics. He's concerned about losing the vote of Missouri.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: And you see the same thing play out in Congress.
Who are the people who support Joseph and the Latter Day Saints in Congress?
[00:05:48] Speaker B: The Northerners?
[00:05:49] Speaker C: Yeah, well, the representatives from Illinois. Right. Where the Latter Day Saints are now settling. And they're like, oh, these are constituents and we want their votes. Right.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: So Joseph Smith is petitioning for these grievances against Missouri. No one is charged for these crimes.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: No one is accountable.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: There's no Justice Certs. And now he goes to the federal government and it falls on deaf ears.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: What happens now?
[00:06:13] Speaker B: So he comes back to Nauvoo, as Neil says, rather jaded, rather cynical about the federal government, about Congress in late 1843. There's an election coming up. 1844 is an election year. And so Joseph Smith writes to the five major political presidential candidates for the 1844 election, namely John C. Calhoun, Henry Clay, those are both kind of famous names. And Henry Clay, especially Henry Clay.
[00:06:40] Speaker C: Remember that from your 8th grade history class?
[00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. Martin Van Buren, he's running for reelection.
Lewis Cass and Richard M. Johnson. So these are the five major contenders. Joseph writes to them asking, hey guys, what are you going to do to help us Latter Day Saints?
And like he very directly says, like, what's your position? What are you going to do to help us? Out of the five that he wrote, only three wrote back.
It was. So the first guy to write back is Henry Clay.
He answers and he gives a very sort of general kind of non committal response. Sort of like Van Buren.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: From what I remember, Joseph Smith had kind of started to vocalize support for that Candidate.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So Henry Clay, he wants a whole thing that Clay man, he had. Yeah.
[00:07:23] Speaker C: When, when they had visited D.C. in 1839 and they talked to Henry Clay then. Because I think he was in the
[00:07:31] Speaker B: House of Representatives or I think so. Yeah,
[00:07:36] Speaker C: he was actually fairly receptive and he expressed a willingness to yeah. Support their petition in Congress and stuff like that. And so I think Joseph was pretty optimistic about Henry Clay initially.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: And he basically he says this, he says he sympathizes with the sufferings under injustice of the Saints. But he could quote, enter into no engagements, make no promises, give no pledges to any particular portion of the people of the United States. So Henry Clay is not going to help. Kind of devastating. John C. Calhoun, he writes in December of 1843 and he kind of like Martin Van Buren says, quote, the Latter Day Saints quote, do not come within the jurisdiction of the federal government, which is one of limited and specific powers.
From what Spencer McBride and others have discussed, it seems that John C. Calhoun, who's kind of a big fan of slavery and the rights of Southern states, he's kind of worried that if this could create precedent for then the federal government stepping in for slaves and things like that.
[00:08:39] Speaker C: I think he's from South Carolina. He also is someone that Joseph Smith talked to when they went to Washington D.C. and he was quite negative then too about it. But yeah, he's big on states rights just like those Southerners.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Just those Southerners to protect slavery. Right. And then finally Louis Cass, he's the last one to respond and he just basically says the same thing. I don't think it's within the power of the President to step into this kind of thing.
So that's the response that he gets. It's a big whop in nothing. Sorry man, it's so bad that happened to you but we can't really do anything cuz the federal government can't do anything.
[00:09:12] Speaker C: Well and lots of like not just the federal government can't do it, but like hey, you should go back to Missouri and petition for this is a state matter. And you know, Joseph's sitting there thinking like Missouri, like they're the ones who did this.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the state.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: This is why Joseph Smith says kind of in response to all this there's sort of a famous or infamous quote from Joseph Smith that people today in our political landscape like to kind of use.
He says, quote, the states rights doctrine are what feed mobs and they are a dead carcass, a stink and they shall ascend up as a Stink offering in the nose of the Almighty. They shall be oppressed as they have oppressed us, not by Mormons, but by others in power. They shall drink a drink offering the bitterest dregs. Not from the Mormons, but from the meaner sources than themselves. God shall curse them. So. Strong words, strong words. That's in November of 1843 when he says that for some context here. Right.
And this is kind of a running theme in the episode. We should just say right now it's difficult, if not impossible, to map on Joseph Smith's politics in the 1840s onto modern politics. Right. So we should be careful because I'll see people will take that and they'll try to map that onto current debates over states.
[00:10:26] Speaker C: He must have been a Democrat or something.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: The political parties of the 19th century can't really map neatly onto other.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Well, there's no more Whigs anymore, you know what I mean? And that's the major party. So this is to say, ladies and gentlemen, these statements from Joseph Smith are highly contextualized for what's happening. Maybe there's general principles we can debate about or wrangle with, but like, you know, just be careful not to proof text Joseph Smith's politics for today. So, okay, so Missouri's not going to help us. Congress isn't going to help us. The presidential candidates aren't going to help us. So what are we going to do, Neil and Jasmine? What's the last thing Joseph Smith can do if no one else is going to help him?
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Run for president.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Run for president. Exactly. So this is what paves the road towards Joseph Smith running for president.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: And I think it has.
Interesting that from what I understand, this was kind of a unique election in that the incumbent president was not running for reelection like people might have expected. And so the campaign trail was a little more open to a variety of candidates than it would have been in a traditional election, which maybe gave Joseph Smith a little additional confidence that this might be possible.
[00:11:25] Speaker C: Well, I think, I think, I think it was John Tyler.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: John Tyler's the president. Yeah.
[00:11:30] Speaker C: And I don't know if he wasn't running, but he, like, he was the vice president to William Henry Harrison.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Remember old Tippecanoe who died after 31 days, who died after just a month
[00:11:41] Speaker C: in office, and he kind of spurned his party. He, like, went against their principles. He was not like, I think, were they Whigs or were they Democrats?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: They're wigs.
[00:11:52] Speaker C: Okay, so he, likes. The Whigs were the pro federal government party. Right. And Democrats Democrats were actually the states rights small government people back then. And, and yeah, he spurned that. He ruled in favor of state or he did things that supported states rights several times.
And so the party was not gonna support him for a run for reelection.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: So it's an open field, in other words, which is why you have all these other people suddenly stepping in. Right. So in steps Joseph smith as well.
January 29, 1844, Joseph is in a meeting with the 12 in the mayor's office and hears from Joseph Smith's journal, moved by Willard Richards and voted unanimously that we have independent electors and that Joseph Smith be a candidate for the next presidency and that we use all honorable means to secure his election.
Joseph said to accomplish this we must send every man in the city who could speak throughout the land to electioneer stump speech, Mormon religion, election laws, etc. Etc.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: So, so wild though, like, what makes like the mayor of Nauvoo think that he can really run?
[00:13:01] Speaker B: They could do this. Yeah.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: What's his point here? Is he trying to really like get into the presidency? Is he just trying to draw attention to the Mormons plight? What's going on?
[00:13:10] Speaker B: And that's the thing that like sort of contemporaries then were wondering like, is this just like a power grab? That's what his critics think. Is it a publicity stunt? Yeah, kind of thing we actually have from Joseph himself why he's running for president. So in February is when he kind of launches his campaign, he publishes his presidential platform, which we'll read from in just a minute here. And he says this, quote, I would not have suffered my name to have been used by my friends on any wise as President of the United States or candidate for that office, if I and my friends could have had the privilege of enjoying our religious and civil rights as American citizens. Okay, so what Joseph is saying here is they are fed up with feeling that their rights are being either trampled or ignored by people. Right.
So he is going to run for president, it appears in all earnestness, to secure both the rights for Latter Day Saints and for everybody else. Okay. This was not just a cynical power grab by Joseph Smith to take over the world as president. And I'm going to force everybody to become Mormons or anything like that. Based on his statements he makes publicly based on his presidential platform, which we'll look at in a minute. He earnestly sincerely thought we need to protect minority rights of all individuals, especially religious minorities in the United States. And that seems to be motivating him.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: Yeah. And some of the context that Spencer McBride actually provides in the book is that, you know, the Latter Day Saint experience as a religious minority was not unique. Right.
Well, I mean, the particular details of their experiences have their nuances. Right. But Catholics were also persecuted.
Jews were also persecuted. He kind of talks about how basically at the time, the idea of religious freedom was really pretty much limited to Protestant, white Protestants.
[00:14:59] Speaker B: Right, yeah.
[00:15:00] Speaker C: And so.
So these other, you know, other people who were part of. Who felt kind of outside of that box, people often felt like they just. Well, they don't really even have. Like their religion doesn't count when it comes to freedom of religious expression.
And so Joseph, he shows, he's. He's responding to the direct experience of Latter Day Saints, but he shows sensitivity to others who are also experiencing similar persecutions. Right?
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's also a important link on the Joseph Smith Papers website that we'll put in the show. Notes, statements from Joseph Smith on religious freedom that proves that he was serious about wanting to protect religious freedom for everybody, not just the Latter Day Saints. I'll just read one or two quotes here. So from 1839, be assured, sir, that I have the most liberal sentiments and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties and denominations, and the rights and liberties of conscience I hold most dear, most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.
Later, in 1844, as he is declaring his candidacy, he says a soft answer turns away wrath. So says the wise man. And it will be greatly to the credit of the Latter Day Saints to show the love of God by now, kindly treating those who may have, in an unconscious moment, done them wrong. For truly said Jesus, pray for thine enemies, humanity towards all reason and refinement to enforce virtue and good for evil, are so eminently designed to cure more disorders of society than an appeal to arms or even argument untempered with friendship. Our motto then is peace with all. If we have joy in the love of God, let us try to give a reason of that joy which all the world cannot gainsay or resist. So these very broad liberal sentiments from Joseph Smith for the rights of all people, that's what's motivating him.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: So if Joseph Smith were trying to aggrandize himself with this political campaign or just do a publicity stunt, I would imagine his platform might look something like protecting the Mormons. So what does his platform actually look like? What is he advocating for in his campaign?
[00:17:04] Speaker B: What? Well, what's nice is we have his campaign pamphlet, right?
General Smith's views of the Powers and Policy of the Government of the United States, published in February. John Taylor is the printer. They print like several thousand copies. They really distribute it and they hand these out to missionaries like the quorum of the 12 and other elders. And it's really funny to think about today, but if you're in 1844 and you're a Latter Day Saint missionary in the United States, you're going to be like stump speeching for Joseph Smith and campaigning and you're going to be spreading the gospel.
Before we get to the actual document itself, if I may share one anecdote from this, and by the way, we can also plug this really good book, Storming the the Unknown Contribution of Joseph Smith's Political Missionaries, published by the Religious Study Center. It talks about the electioneering and the campaigning that members of the quorum of the 12 did with Joseph Smith's political pamphlet right in hand. Let me just read one story that's kind of fun because my great, great, great grandfather, Abraham O. Smoot, was one of these electioneering missionaries and he was in the south. Because he's from the South. Right. The Smoots are from Kentucky. So he's in Kentucky and Tennessee in that area. And he has this story. I won't read the whole thing, but I do want to read some parts of it because it kind of gives you a sense of sort of what was at stake here and kind of the drama behind what's going on.
So In May of 1844, Abraham Osmut says he goes to Tennessee to election year for Joseph Smith as candidate for presidency of the United States. He gets to a place called Dresden, Tennessee, in a courthouse where he's having meetings and what do you know, a mob shows up. And there's two or three incidents he records, both in his journal and his later memoir, where mobs attack him and others gather there, both to hear the Mormon elders preach, but also attacking them. Because you're campaigning for this Joe Smith guy.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: Right, Interesting. So electioneering wasn't necessarily a safe occupation.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: No, no, it could be. It could be quite hazardous. And so let me read the quote here. So he says after they initially had actually there were gunfire, shots that were shot into the courthouse that I kind of barely. Yeah.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: So after that happening today on a campaign.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, right. Kind of crazy. So after the first night when people try to shoot into the courthouse, they go back the next day and let me read this. Another meeting was announced for the following day. But before it commenced, a lawyer of the town laid his plans to break it Up. I had not long been speaking when he, at the head of a mob of 200 men, marched into the room and demanded that I should cease speaking as they had come to attend my case in this emergency. And for the only time in my public life, I made use of a Masonic sign calling for help with.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: When lo.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: A number of persons sprang up to assist me. The lawyer was commanded to give his reasons for interfering with me, which he proceeded to do by delivering a most abusive and slanderous speech. I finally commanded him to sit down, and he did so very suddenly. And the Masons who were present, who were very numerous and influential, gave him to understand that he could not be allowed to molest me. I continue my remarks, and at the closing of the meeting, Mr. Camp, who they were, he was the guy kind of hosting the meeting. Mr. Camp took vengeance on the lawyer by knocking him down and kicking him around the courthouse yard.
That's a fun story.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: That's a really fun story. For multiple reasons. I mean, part of it is to just give you a sense of the campaign trail. But also, like, one of the reasons Joseph Smith wanted to have the saints be introduced to Masonry wasn't just as preparation for the temple endowment was partly. Also social protection. Right. Because Masons, you know, promise to protect each other.
[00:20:37] Speaker B: Indeed.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: And so this is a real example of that happening and something where it didn't play out in Carthage where Joseph Smith was hoping that he could get that same kind of help, similar deal, and instead he ended up dead on the street.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: Right. So it's just one anecdote of many. So check out Derek Sainsbury's book here about that. By the way, we won't read the rest of the account, but Abraham Osmut goes on to say that he had copies of Joseph Smith's presidential platform that he wanted to distribute, but his lawyer friend said, we don't think you can. It might be illegal. Why? Because Joseph Smith called for the end of slavery, the abolition of slavery in the United States, and you're in a slave state. Maybe we'll get to that. Now we can talk about that. That was one of the points.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Right, okay, so what is his platform for his presidential campaign?
[00:21:18] Speaker B: So he has a couple of big things. First of all, the pamphlet, we should say it's almost certainly Ghost, written by W.W. phelps. Right. Like, it's very verbose. It's very verbose. It's very long winded. It's. It's peppered with these like, you know, foreign phrases in, like, German and Aramaic and Italian and You know, things like that. Latin trying to be all fancy. This is absolutely William Phelps. But, you know, it still reflects Joseph Smith's thinking, so that's okay. Okay.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: He also quotes a lot of founding fathers, too.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Thomas. Thomas Jefferson.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: Thomas Jefferson or James Monroe.
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So a couple of things he wants. So first of all, of course, he wants federal protection for civil and religious rights, especially. So he parts ways with Van Buren and Clay and Calhoun. He. He thinks, no, the government should step in on a state level to protect the civil rights of especially minorities in America. In some ways, that's a pretty progressive view for the time. Right. Like, we think that's kind of funny. Oh, the government protects our rights. How quaint. But like the 40s, again, before the passage of, like, the 14th Amendment and some of these later legislations. Yeah, like, that was kind of a progressive view in some ways. So he wants that. He wanted to reduce the size of Congress. But here's what he says.
Two senators from a state and two members to a million of population will do more business than the army that now occupy the halls of the national legislature. Pay them $2 and their board per diem. Except Sundays.
That is more than the farmer gets. And he lives honestly. That's pretty great. Like these little barbs.
These little barbs at Congress. Right. Things like that.
[00:22:48] Speaker C: So it was. It was not just a reduction in size, though. It was also a pay cut.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:53] Speaker C: That wage that he's quoting. And, hey, it's more than a farmer makes. Right. But it's a. It's a massive pay reduction. Yeah, they're. They're collecting.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: He says, curtail the offices of government and pay number and power for the Philistine lords have shorn our nation of its goodly locks in the lap of Delilah. That's pretty great.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: So if you can understand why Joseph Smith is kind of fed up with Congress.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Pretty salty.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Pretty salty about Congress. So. So that's a big one. Reduce Congress.
Talk about the abolition of slavery.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: That one's got to be controversial.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: That's a big one. Oh, yeah. And he comes out swinging on slavery. And we want to clarify this a little bit here, because people you'll hear today say Joseph Smith was an abolitionist, kind of. Okay, so he did want to end slavery. He wanted to end it by 1850.
So, like, within the presidential administration, basically, six, seven years. Six, seven years. He wants slavery to be ended. How does he want to end it, though? So Joseph Smith's plan essentially is the federal government will sell land, Federal land that it has, and use that to compensate slave owners to buy the freedom of slaves. Right. In a nutshell, that is a much less radical form of abolition than what you get from guys like Frederick Douglass or William Lloyd Garrison or, you know, John Brown. Right. Harper's Ferry.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: John Brown's body lies a moldering in the grave, that whole kind of thing. Yeah. So there are guys in the 1840s and 50s where like they say, no right now, take up your guns and go and forcibly free the slaves. Like that's that kind of abolition. Joseph's not into that. He doesn't want to, like violently, you know, kill all the slave owners. He wants to pay them to let the slaves go free. And then that way it will gradually emancipation will come.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: Isn't the pay cut of Congress also supposed to contribute to that as well?
[00:24:42] Speaker B: That's a good question.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: I mean, that's what I'd heard. But I'm not radically free up federal funds for other purposes.
But I do think it's worth noting, like, this is clearly like he's. I don't know if this is a great solution. For the time, I have hardly studied the all the different ideas about how to deal with and ultimately end the slavery issue. I mean, it was obviously, it was an ongoing discussion and debate at the time, but it's. And he wasn't. This isn't even necessarily his innovative idea. There were other people who were proposing similar.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Abraham Lincoln, no less, kind of flirted with this idea initially.
[00:25:17] Speaker C: It's this, this kind of idea is an attempt at being practical about the reality of the situation and saying, how do we, okay, I'm against slavery, but how do we, how do we get
[00:25:31] Speaker A: people on board with this?
[00:25:32] Speaker C: How do we get people on board with this?
[00:25:33] Speaker A: How do we realistically roll this up
[00:25:34] Speaker C: who are profiting off of slavery right now? Right.
Without, you know, without doing the take up your guns and. Yeah, without the violence. How do we do this? Right. And so it's this, it's, it's, it's the kind of practical politics that represents compromise and an attempt to make sure both sides come out with a win kind of thing. That, that actually reflects, I think, a fairly kind of adept political skill.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: And that's the key here is the politics of it. I think we all would agree with that. Like, the abolitionists run the moral right of like, wanting to end this evil practice of slavery. But in the 1840s and 50s, there's the really hot button topic of like, politically, how do we do this? So Joseph says, I'll read from his Platform petition also ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislatures to abolish slavery by the year 1850 or now and save the abolitionists from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. By the way, abolitionism was, like, super controversial in the 1840s and 50s. Lots of people don't like abolitionists, even other antislavery people.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: I mean, if you're talking about, like, bring out, make it happen immediately. I think a lot of people would have seen abolitionists as like, very radical, anti law and order kind of thing.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: And so having this compromise where you're saying, how do we do this? Practically makes some sense in this context.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: He says, pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands and. And from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress.
[00:27:04] Speaker C: So there you go.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: There it is.
Break off the shackles from the poor black man and hire him to labor with other human beings for an hour of virtuous liberty on earth is worth a whole eternity of bondage. Right. So pretty progressive again, relatively. He doesn't want to do it immediately, but pretty quickly. So abolish slavery. That's an important one. Prison reform. Joseph also wants to reform penitent experience with that, you would imagine. Why. Yeah, why does Joseph care about reforming prisons? So he wants to reform prisons, and he basically wants to sort of reform prisons and penitentiaries, he says, call them seminaries of learning, I think he calls them. Right. And kind of through. Through cultural refinement and education and things like that will teach prisoners how to be rehabilitated into society Again. You can understand why Joseph was imprisoned
[00:27:51] Speaker A: in Liberty Jail for a long period.
[00:27:53] Speaker B: Indeed. Right. He wanted to create a national bank, which again, is.
[00:27:58] Speaker C: Gee, why did he want a national bank?
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Could it be because, I mean, with heaven in Kirtland maybe, and, you know, financial instability on the state level that's happening during that couldn't have anything to do with it.
By the way, that's an example where, again, you can't map Joseph Smith's politics onto just one modern political party or the other.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: He's kind of across the board in these principles.
[00:28:18] Speaker C: And I think you just have to recognize that his reasons for some of these things were directly contingent on the experience he and the Latter Day Saints had had. Right. He's looking at what happened in Kirtland and saying, with the Kirtland Safety Society
[00:28:32] Speaker A: and how that bank work.
[00:28:33] Speaker C: We need a national bank.
He's not necessarily looking at the issues of 2026 and saying this is what makes sense.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah, guys, the Federal Reserve, that ship has sailed. Right? Like whatever you think of it. Yeah. We're not fed. Yeah, that's right. Calm down, Ron Paul.
So another one of two things. We can wrap it up here. Westward expansion. So kind of manifest destiny, but with qualification because again, kind of pretty progressive for the time.
Joseph says we should expand westward, but with the consent of indigenous peoples on the land.
[00:29:05] Speaker C: Right.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: So here's what he says. As to the contiguous territories of the United States, wisdom would direct no tangling alliance. Oregon belongs to this government honorably. And when we have the red man's consent, let the Union spread from the east to the west sea. And if Texas petitions Congress to be adopted among the sons of Liberty and give her the right hand of fellowship, I love it too. And refuse not the same friendship grip, friendly grip to Canada and Mexico. Right. So lots of talk about annexing Canada these days. Hey.
[00:29:37] Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of relevant now, but for context on the Oregon thing, there was dispute over whether the US or Great Britain owned the Oregon Territory. Yeah. So he's saying his position is that it's rightfully the US Territory.
And then with Texas. Texas was part of Mexico, but they did not like being part of Mexico because. Well, why say they? The settlers who had come in from the U.S. yeah, into Texas, into Texas, didn't like being part of Mexico. They wanted to annex and become a state. But there was kind of debate as to whether they could do that or whether they needed to first achieve their own independence.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:14] Speaker C: And then as he suggests, petition to become a state.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Petition. So another thing he says here, just to kind of wrap up this point, make the wilderness blossom as the rose. And when a neighboring realm petitions to join the union of the sons of Liberty, my voice would be come yea, come Texas, come Mexico, come Canada, and come all the world. Let us be brethren, Let us be one great family and let there be universal peace. So Joseph does believe in westward expansion, but he doesn't want to take it by force. He doesn't want conquest, he doesn't want war. He wants it through voluntary consent of the people living there, including the consent of Native Americans living on those lands. Right. So significant there.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: So that's his platform. How did his campaign end up? How did he do?
Well, too soon.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Too soon. Yeah.
[00:30:58] Speaker C: No.
Well, if you haven't watched last week's episode about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: Uh huh.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: Sadly, yes, his candidacy is cut short, shall we say, because he is murdered in Carthage jail, which kind of ties back to our original point. Right.
The first presidential candidate to be assassinated. Maybe we want to touch on just for a minute. Was he. Was he murdered because he was running for president? Right. That sometimes you hear that. I think there was a book that came out about 20 so years ago, Junius and Joseph, published by Utah State University Press. It's been a while since I've read it, so maybe I'm misremembering, but I believe in that book. The authors argue that, like, Joseph's political. His presidential aspirations, like, directly led to the martyrdom in Carthage. I think that's a minority position. I think most historians see, like, local Hancock county politics as really playing a big part. Certainly his presidential run, like, contributed to the fear and paranoia of his enemies.
[00:31:52] Speaker C: The concerns.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: Latter Day Saints are generally small, and at least Hancock county, they would have represented a pretty solid voting block. I mean, they're pretty much voting homogenously. And so whatever the Latter Day Saints are voting for, pretty influential in the area. And so Joseph Smith then saying, I'm gonna run for president and I'm gonna raise the public of this church even more, I can only imagine might have been concerning or feeling threatening to some of the other politicians in the area.
[00:32:16] Speaker C: Well, we say Latter Day Saints are small, and they were, when you look at, like, the broader population, but by being highly concentrated in the city of Nauvoo, they were rivaling Chicago as the biggest city in Illinois. And so they were actually a significant power players, if you will, in state. The state of Illinois politics, which is exactly why state politics, local politics do become a huge factor in.
And it's why a lot of people, a lot of the anxiety that their neighbors had over what, you know, the influence they were having and wielding over the outcome of elections. Right. And there's a little bit of.
They're a little finicky as a voting bloc because they don't consistently support Democrat or Whig.
And they end up kind of ticking off both parties.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah, they make them both mad.
[00:33:10] Speaker C: They make them both mad because they don't consistently align with one party or the other.
And so, yeah, there are. We tend to think more about the Joseph Smith martyrdom in terms of religious reasons because there's, you know, because he was a religious leader and ultimately, you know, everything he was doing was tied to his office as head of the church and his, you know, in his view at least, his role as prophet, seer and revelator. But.
But I think we. We do a Disservice if we neglect the politics.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:40] Speaker C: Because the politics are absolutely a factor on the local and. And state level and.
And certainly him declaring himself a candidate for president.
And, you know, they had a seller, they. They like, celebrated his. His presidential candidacy on, like, May 17th. This is just like a.
A lot of the stuff we talked about in our martyrdom episode starts happening. That really amps up the tensions, the
[00:34:05] Speaker B: heat and the tensions.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Right. That was not helping the situation because, again, if you think Joseph Smith is wielding too much power as mayor of
[00:34:14] Speaker B: Nauvoo, wait till he becomes president, man.
[00:34:17] Speaker C: Then the prospect of him becoming president is gonna be terrifying to you. Right.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: If he hadn't been killed, could he have become president? What are the odds that he actually could have succeeded?
[00:34:26] Speaker B: I think most historians think they're probably pretty low. Right. Again, it was sort of chaotic in that sense of. It was a long shot, a Hail Mary shot in the dark. This ties into the last thing we should mention here, which is Joseph Smith's sort of westward look and his establishment of a council of 50.
So this kind of goes along with his presidential run. There's a whole book on the Council of 50 we can recommend that was published by the Religious Studies center here. We won't get into the nitty gritty details, but The Council of Fifty was established in March of 1844 to basically help set up the political kingdom of God on the earth in anticipation for Jesus Second Coming. Okay.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: It's pretty ambitious.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Pretty ambitious. Pretty based, I think.
Indeed. Right. Well, the Council50 helped campaign for Joseph Smith. They helped with his presidential run.
Another big thing that Council 50 does is they're looking westward for potential territory to relocate at. Again, it all kind of comes together in this broad idea of we're going to do everything we can to prepare for the Second Coming and to help secure our rights.
So maybe who's to say in 10, 15 years, in an alternate parallel universe or alternate timeline where Joseph Smith is not killed at Carthage, Is there, like a Mormon stronghold in Texas or Oregon or something? Right. Like where. And there's now enough later or the state of Deseret. That's right. Yeah. The great base of Deseret. Could that have been?
We can't answer these counterfactuals, but historians wonder about that. Probably in 1844, he does not win the presidency, but, you know, who's to say? Certainly it was an earnest, sincere effort and they put serious, like, legwork into it. Right.
This wasn't just. I don't think it was just A protest vote, like, screw you, we're going to stay home or vote for Joseph Smith kind of thing. Like, no, they probably earnestly were looking at making this happen. So who's to say what have.
[00:36:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I would put it in context with something. And this is not a political endorsement in any way, shape or form, but within a recent context, the presidential campaign of Evan McMullen.
[00:36:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: Yeah. His campaign was specifically a shot in the dark, and he framed it as such.
[00:36:25] Speaker C: It was a shot in the dark. You could call it a pro, but he was literally putting himself out there as a candidate for people who were unsatisfied with the alternatives. Okay.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:37] Speaker C: And when you do that, you can't do that. You can't be a defeatist. When you do that, you say, well, I don't have a chance to win, but I'm here so that you can vote for someone you respect. Right, right. You have to give voters.
[00:36:49] Speaker A: You have to have a strategy.
[00:36:50] Speaker C: Yeah, you have to have a strategy confidence, a winning strategy, and you have to give voters confidence that my vote here is not being wasted. Right. And so did Joseph Smith have a strategy for winning? Did they have the ambition that, like, okay, if we take a certain course and a strategy, we can potentially win this?
Absolutely, I think. But there were also other agendas at play, which was primarily, hey, if there's no one who's going to, like, actually run on a platform that no one's going to actually throw their hat in the ring to support the Latter Day Saints, I'm going to give them a candidate they can safely vote for who they know is in their corner. And we can use this national platform as an opportunity to. Basically a PR opportunity. Right. To get our cause out there.
And, you know, maybe we don't win this presidential campaign, but we win over more of the populist, more sympathy for people, more sympathy for our people, which then makes our petitions to Congress have a little more weight because they know that, well, their constituents are sympathetic to the Latter Day Saints.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: So is this just then a publicity stunt or is this a sincere presidential campaign?
[00:37:56] Speaker B: It's a sincere presidential campaign.
It is not a cynical power grab. It is not Joseph the tyrant trying to, you know, take over the world and force everybody. It's also not an ego trip for Joseph Smith. Right. That's. That's a fundamental misunderstanding what's happening here. Just look at his presidential platform. Look at General Smith's views of the policies and powers of the government. It's not just, what can we do to protect the Mormons and give the Mormons more power, make sure we're all cover on top. No, he is concerned about national issues. People are debating slavery, the federal bank, westward migration, the size of Congress. Right. These are issues that would affect everybody, not just the Latter Day Saints. Right in Nauvoo. So, yeah, it was a serious effort. It was not a cynical power grab.
Obviously, again, it got cut short because of Carthage right in June. But hopefully this helped give some additional context to Joseph Smith's politics and this interesting kind of finishing concluding episode of Joseph Smith's life, him running for president.
[00:38:53] Speaker A: Well, if you guys want to learn more, you can pick up the book Joseph Smith for President by Spencer McBride. We will put the link in the description and in our show notes. And remember, you can study deeply, believe boldly and we'll see you next time.
