Latter-day Saints React to Michigan Shooting and Prophet's Death

[00:00:01] Speaker A: I have never seen anything like this in the Latter Day Saints space. And things are really heavy today as we discuss the passing of President Russell M. Nelson and also the tragic shooting that happened today in Grand Blanc, Michigan. Welcome to Informed Saints. My name is Jasmine Rapley. I'm joined by Neal Rapley and Steven Smoot remotely, and we've got a lot to talk about. We weren't even planning to do a video like this today, but after seeing just the barrage of notifications and the onslaught of emotion that hit me, at least it felt like we needed to come on and have this discussion. I know I have been feeling a lot of feelings over this. So first I'd love to just know what your initial reactions were when last night you got the news President Nelson has passed away. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll guess I'll go first. It was a little surreal, if I'm being perfectly honest. Like, I was. I was just down in the basement. I was working on some projects, some research, writing some stuff, and I saw within. I, I saw the notification in. I saw a notification in a group chat that I'm in and I clicked from there to the Facebook announcement and it was only three minutes old. And I, I really, like, I was trying to process, Like, I, I was. I was like, wait, is this for real? Like, I was double checking the, the Facebook page name and everything, making sure, like, is this, is this some kind of joke or is this, is this for real? Because I just couldn't even believe that, like in the middle of the night, like that, of all things, right? That, like this, this big announcement came out. It just was. It was shocking, right? [00:01:49] Speaker A: I was kind of surprised. [00:01:50] Speaker B: Even though they did announce 101, I. [00:01:53] Speaker A: Was kind of surprised that they did announce it at night instead of just waiting until the next morning. But I don't know, I just. Late at night, you're getting ready for your Sabbath and you hear that news, you're never going to be the same. Of course, I didn't even hear it until this morning. I went to bed early last night and I woke up to just an onslaught of messages. How about you, Stephen? [00:02:10] Speaker C: Yeah, I was in bed with my wife. We were just kind of dozing off, doing our evening doom scroll right before bed, as is wants to do these days. And we were up late because our little one who's teething, he was, you know, having a bad time. So we brought him into bed with us and we're just kind of there and I just like kind of audibly gasped. I saw it on my Facebook. And like Neil, I had to like a double take to make sure that this wasn't like fake news or like a parody account or something. And once I had confirmed it was real, I told my wife, lie next to me, and she gasped as well. I guess my initial reaction was shock because for some reason my brain was convinced that President Nelson was going to live forever. That's kind of what it seemed like. Being the oldest living prophet that we've had and being at the ripe old age of 101 years old, I thought I just kind of expect him to be around forever. So to actually finally see the news or to finally have this happen. Yeah, I guess that was my initial reaction, was just kind of a very sad kind of shock that it finally actually happened that he left us. [00:03:23] Speaker A: And certainly, I mean, once he turned 100 years old, there's this huge party for it because we've never had a 100 year old president. It was like, okay, any day now he can go. But then once he reaches 101, it's just like, well, I guess he's sticking around and he'll. He'll always be around. So to finally see this wonderful prophet pass is still emotional. Even though it's a happy occasion for, you know, he's lived a wonderful life and he deserves rest. It's still always a little bit sad. Well, besides just our initial reactions for his passing, I would love to talk more about President Nelson the person, President Nelson the prophet, and what kind of led to the life he's lived. So, Stephen, could you maybe like give us some background on President Nelson's life and your summation of his prophet? [00:04:10] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. Let me share my screen here real quick if that's okay, Jasmine, because. [00:04:19] Speaker A: I. [00:04:19] Speaker C: Think this is going to be it right here. Hopefully you can see this. This went up as soon as President Nelson, the news had broken that he had passed away. This is a pretty good sort of thorough obituary memorial for President Nelson. It's a long one, right? It goes through lots of details about his life and legacy. This is up on the church newsroom. So I recommend that viewers, if you haven't had a chance to go through and they'll go, I mean, look, it just keeps going and going and going. A storied life by any measure of a man. There's also this nice video that they, that they produced, which I watched, we watched today. My elders Quorum. So lots of good coverage out there about President Nelson here. I'll stop sharing there and come back to me so you can check out the newsroom. So some of the highlights of President Nelson's life. I won't tread too much new ground here since I'm sure most of our viewers are probably very familiar with President Nelson. But we mentioned he's 101 years old. He was born on September 9, 1924. What was the world like in 1924? It's the roaring twenties. Like World War I had just ended a few years before the Spanish flu. Like they're coming off the tail end of that. That's kind of crazy. Heber J. Grant. I'll just say, Neil. Heber J. Grant was the president of the church in 1924. I could probably real quick pull up some other statistics, right? [00:05:47] Speaker B: Like, well, here's one that I thought of today. Here's one that I thought of today that, that kind of blew my mind is years between when President Nelson was born and when Brigham Young died. 47 years. 47 years between Brigham Young and President Nelson's lives. That's wild to me. And it speaks to something I've actually been saying for a few years now is that President Nelson lived through more than half of church history, more than half of church history. And it really speaks to how young we are as a church. I mean, I don't know exactly, but I'm willing to bet the sizable number of adults in President Nelson's life when he was a child had been born in the 19th century. Right. He probably knew grandparents or older figures in his warden stuff who had been around maybe even when Brigham Young had been president, right before he died. And so again, it just speaks to how young the church is and how extraordinary it really is to have had someone leading the church these last few years who had just so much, so much heritage. Right. So who, who knew? Who had lived through so much of the history? [00:07:07] Speaker C: So I pulled up here a nice fact sheet about the church in 1924. Actually, the church provided it last year for President Nelson's birthday. Okay. Total church membership in 1924, just short of 600,500 97,861. There were 90 stakes. There were six temples. There were eight stakes with less than with at least one stake. There were three countries with one stake. The total percentage of stakes in Utah at the time was 56%. Total stakes in the US was 95%. There were about 1600 branches, 25 missions. The Book of Mormon had been translated into 15 languages and there were less than 900 full time missionaries. There were 867. And Hubert J. Grant was the prophet and it says also here, general Conference was broadcast for the first time over radio in October 1924. So that kind of puts into perspective the world less than a thousand. And that puts into perspective the world that President Nelson was born in. So anyways, just to run down a quick more bit of his biography, grow up in Utah, in Salt Lake City. He went to East High School. Go East High Leopards. That's where I went. That's right. He's another alum. Went to East High, then to the University of Utah, where he got his BA in Biological Science in 1945. Then later he did his medical degree there, went on to the University of Minnesota and got his PhD in 1954. Related to his research work, of course. He was in the US Army Medical Corps during the Korean War, 1951-1953. He accepted posts in surgery at the University of Utah School of Medicine. He was also offered a position at the University of Chicago School of Medicine. But famously, he was told by David O. McKay to stay in Utah. And so that's what he did. Some other highlights here. Of course, he's famous as being a heart surgeon, performed many complex cardiac surgeries. One notable case was operating on Spencer W. Kimball to replace his damaged aortic valve. There's that famous story of him, president of the Society for Vascular Surgery, 1975. I mean, like, you just go on and on, right? We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. If I can recommend for viewers who haven't already had a chance, I recommend you check out the biography that Sherry Dew wrote of President Nelson. She wrote this right when he became president of the church back. It got published in early 2019. So it's a little bit dated because it doesn't cover his tenure as church president really. But it's still very helpful to read leading up to here. So real quick, his church involvement. From 1971 to 1979, he served as Sunday School General president. He was a regional representative. This is a fun fact. I learned he would give tours of Temple Square when he was living in Utah. So that'd be kind of fun. Imagine getting a tour of Temple Square of President Nelson. [00:10:14] Speaker A: In what capacity was he giving tours? Was this part of his calling or just because he liked to? [00:10:18] Speaker C: No, apparently this was his role as a church missionary and publicity role, basically. So like probably aligned with his leadership role or like a regional representative, I think is as I'm understanding from these notes here. So, yeah, as the regional representative for the church, he was giving tours of the temple. Yeah. Educational boards, missionary oversight, all sorts of stuff. And okay, pop quiz for Neil and Jasmine. And they said it in his obituary. What year did President Nelson become an apostle? [00:10:49] Speaker B: Ah, 1984. [00:10:51] Speaker C: Ah, good job. Deal. Yeah, 1984, April 7, 1984. [00:10:56] Speaker A: He's been an apostle for over 40 years then, which is a, that itself is a career. And he did this after having a successful career. So I mean it just underscores that these people aren't getting into church service to get rich or to have the fame like these people who deserve a very happy, comfortable retirement are instead devoting an extra career to serving and long nights, long weekends, traveling across the world to minister and meet with people. It's really remarkable. And I didn't realize that he was in the Sunday school board before that and other educational boards. He really has had a very long church institutional career throughout his time here. So I do. Do you know how old he was when he stopped being a practicing surgeon? [00:11:41] Speaker C: Well, if he went into the ministry, we could say in 1984. 4. I think as I recall from his biography, that's when, that's when he had to full time basically retire from being a full time surgeon. Because of course before then he did the surgery on like Spencer B. Kimball and things like that. Right. So offhand I'm guessing that's when, when he stopped being full time active. Maybe I'd have to double check in the biography. Maybe he did one or two after that. But then it was like, okay, I gotta be an apostle now. Yeah, I'm not seeing my notes, so probably around that time, I would guess. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Okay, interesting. Well, he's had an illustrious life. I feel like one of the things that his presidency has been most noted for is change. And I mean this is just, I, I talked about on my own socials today just the, like, just how aghast I was to see NBC News have this headline about how like Mormon prophet Russell Nelson not likely to transform church. And there were a few headlines from a variety of news sources. Yeah, the Tribune, the Salt Lake Tribune had something along those lines too of like, yeah, it looks like now that the new prophet's taking over, we don't know, probably not going to expect too much because he's like the conservative minded. [00:13:00] Speaker C: Russell Nelson is not expected to change the status quo. I saw those, those headlines too, Jasmine. Yeah, that was a great little video you had on that. Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker A: I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It's not like I thought they were wrong at that point. I didn't really know what to Expect of President Nelson when he was first prophet in 2018. But he quickly, very, very rapidly, just like set down what the pace was going to be. And he told everyone, eat your vitamins, you know, get some good sleep because things are going to be exciting. And he was not. [00:13:27] Speaker C: That was a banger quote, take your vitamin pills, get your rest. It's going to be exciting is what he said at the time. Yeah. [00:13:34] Speaker A: And he sprinted for the rest of his life until he died. [00:13:39] Speaker B: I, I think that I, I share similar sentiments. Like, I've heard a lot of other people say this, and I'm, I may be a little ashamed to say this, I don't know, but like, he was not like my favorite apostle, not that I disliked him, but like, he just, for me personally, he never really stood out among the quorum of the 12 like some others do. And I know you're not supposed to have favorites and they don't like us talking about favorites necessarily, but he just wasn't someone who really stood out to me. And so I didn't know what to expect when he became president of the church. And I just, I, I expected, I thought, yeah, for one thing, he's really old, so I thought maybe we'll get three years out of him. He, he did twice as long. Right. And I, I figured it would be pretty, yeah, pretty conservative. Like we're just gonna, you know, for the next few years, we're just gonna continue along in the status quo until the next leader. You know, he was just gonna. I guess what you could say is I, I thought he was just gonna kind of be a holdover till President Oaks or maybe Holland, depending who outlived who in that situation. But that was so far from the truth. He ended up, yeah, just being such a mover and shaker. And I felt like just so much of, he was so much what we needed. And, and what was really kind of transformative for me is like I said, he never really stood out to me when he was an apostle. His conference talks never really stood out to me when he was an apostle. But once he was president of the church, I felt like it was banger after banger with his conference talks. Like he was just, he, he was so good, every single talk he gave just felt like it was so, so much, exactly what we needed to hear, what I needed to hear, what the world needed to hear. And, and he had so many great, you know, there was a lot of great, quotable, thought provoking statements in there, in every talk. It just, I felt like he, the Mantle really fell upon him, you know, and he just really kind of took it to a new level. I felt like. [00:15:47] Speaker A: Do you have any examples of conference talks that you're like, yes, this is what we needed to hear right now? [00:15:52] Speaker B: Well, I mean, yeah, I think that the, I was looking through some of the talks this, this, like today, this morning, as I was thinking about them, and I, I, I tagged like 11, 11 of them that I thought, oh, these are all ones that I really liked. And so it's. When you ask for like one example, it's really hard because so many of them but like, really, really just like right out of the gate with the, with the one on the name change, or not the name change. Right, but the one emphasizing that we're going to use the policy change, I should say, around using the name of the church and emphasizing that just like that, for me, right out of the gate kind of stood out and it set a tone for a lot of the rest of his ministry that, hey, we're about focusing on Jesus Christ. And you know, a couple years later when the bicentennial of the first vision comes up and I'm sitting here thinking so much about, like, yeah, I'm gonna read up on Joseph Smith and the burned over district and revivals and all of this stuff to like, celebrate and commemorate, and those are all good things. But when President Nelson gets up and he speaks and his talk's called Hear him, he's focusing on Jesus Christ. He's using this as an occasion to, to orient us towards the Lord and listening to Jesus Christ in our own lives. And then of course, the restoration proclamation itself, it's something I've noted before, it focuses a lot more on God and Jesus Christ and what they're doing in the restoration than it does on Joseph Smith and other early saints as agents of what's happening. Right. And so those two talks right there, I felt like, were both ones that stood out to me and like I said, kind of reoriented me, made me realize, hey, he's trying to help us focus more on Jesus Christ. And then of course there's, there's, you know, like, think celestial was a great one peacemakers needed. And you know, his emphasis on peacemaking, especially these last couple years, all of them, they, like I said, just talk after talk. I just thought like, this is so good and this is so needed. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I remember especially during COVID thinking, like, oh, I cannot wait for general conference. Like, we need to hear from the prophet so badly. I need like some guy guidance and some direction. And I felt like I got exactly what I came looking for. Hearing the proclamation, hearing the reassurances that things are going to be okay. It's just what I needed. And I just cannot believe how prophetic President Nelson has been. And that's been like a real testimony builder for myself. He's made so many changes. I haven't always loved all of the changes, or rather, it's taken me time to, like, get used to them, especially when it comes to the temple endowment changes or taking away the live endowment from the Salt Lake Temple. Like, those things were hard for me to hear, but they were really important, growing experiences for me and learning. Like, okay, what's most. Like, what are the priorities? What's most important in life? And do I actually have a testimony of this man? And that, you know, led to me searching and praying and wrestling to make sure that I could stand behind President Russell M. Nelson. And I feel like time and time again this man has demonstrated that he really does see around corners. I just have no other way to explain how someone who is an accomplished career surgeon is the prophet in charge of the church when a global pandemic takes over and knows exactly how to respond to this in a pastoral way. Or the fact that we had just had some pretty negative coverage in the Wall Street Journal. And then the day after, two days after President Nelson came out with an article in Time magazine about, about his life lessons on, like, being a peacemaker and making sure that it doesn't matter what people say about us, we need to be the ones who are extending charity and love and grace, because that's going to win over more hearts. And then the week after that article published, we had the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which really just shook the nation and shook the church because it happened here in Utah in the church headquarters backyard. And a lot of people felt strong emotions, whether it was fear, scared, anger against the perpetrators, paranoia or panic about, like, is this an attack on religion? Is this attack on free speech? And the message from President Nelson was anger never persuades, hostility never heals, contention never leads to lasting solutions. And I feel like collectively, as a people, we have as Latter Day Saint people, but also as Christian people, as an American people, I have been really encouraged to see our spiritual and religious revival even on a small scale, and. And also people willing to extend that charity and grace more so than the people angry and wanting to retaliate. I've seen more people wanting to forgive and wanting to just bring some healing. And so. And there have been several of those Cases where I'm like, how did President Nelson know we were going to need this right now? But he's a prophet. Guys like this just. [00:20:46] Speaker C: I'm not crazy how that works, right? [00:20:50] Speaker A: Did you have any other thoughts? [00:20:52] Speaker C: Yeah, a couple. Maybe I'll share right now before I forget, if I'm allowed to indulge in some personal anecdotes. And I promise this is not a flex. I'm not trying to brag or anything, but I do have a family connection with President Nelson, and I want to give a shout out to my dad, if I may, because he made it in the church news. Back in 1991, when I was just a little tyke, my dad was in the church news with President Nelson. I'm going to share my screen here again real quick. Let me pull this up here. Okay. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Well, you're pulling that up. I thought it was really interesting that even President Trump sent out a tweet on Truth Social commemorating the president. Now, it wasn't something long or personal. I don't think they had any personal connection. But, you know, it just shows that, like Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is enough of a global religion that the President of the United States at the passing it. [00:21:48] Speaker C: Warrants a response is acknowledging that. Right. So a little bit of context to this article. Russian dignitaries hosted in The Church News, May 11, 1991. So this, of course, is right on the heels of the fall of the Soviet Union. And the church was trying to gain some kind of official recognition in the Soviet Union. I should say the former Soviet Union at the time. And who was our point man? None other than Elder Russell M. Nelson was the guy who was in charge of having some of these meetings with the prime minister and several distinguished leaders from Russia who were in California. Right. Okay. So reading along, President or then Elder Nelson's discussing what they were doing here. If I may, if you scroll down a few paragraphs to hear. Elder Nelson was accompanied in the meeting by Keith J. Atkinson, a California director of public affairs for the church, and Stephen H. Smooth and Michael D. Swenson of Satko International, an international trade group that has business dealings in the Soviet Union. Fun fact. Not long after this happened, my family moved to Russia where I lived when I was a very little baby. But unfortunately. Yeah, that's a fun fact about me. I hope they don't. [00:23:05] Speaker B: That's news to me. I hope they don't open it and I have no idea. [00:23:10] Speaker C: Well, I hope they don't open up an FBI probe on me or Something because I promise I don't remember any Russian. And it wasn't a political thing. It was just for business. So. And I was like 2 years old or, or 3 at the time or whatever. But what's funny here. So brother Smoot arranged the meeting between the church and Russian leaders. So the little family claim to fame, as very modest as it is, is that my dad's business connections, he was able to facilitate this meeting between Elder Nelson and these Russian leaders. My dad knew and my grandpa knew Elder Nelson right again growing up in Salt Lake. So they went back their family connections and so that was it. My dad this morning texted me this. He shared this article with me and he said Elder Nelson flew down and back with me to that meeting and said the meeting was quote, most productive in a letter to the first presidency, which he copied me on. And I've asked if we still have that letter. And he said yes, somewhere in my filing cabinet. So somewhere in our family records we have this fun letter of Elder Nelson acknowledging this meeting. And the one little smooth claim to fame here is that my dad helped arrange that. Again, not to be a modest or boastful, but just rather to say this is very personal for our family since we do President Nelson personally. My dad also told me when President Nelson announced that they were going to do a temple in Russia after the announcement, general conference, President Nelson, now President Nelson sent my dad a letter, another letter saying, we're so happy about the news. I hope you heard about it. Thank you again for all that early work that you did to help us get the church in Russia. So it's, it's been very tender for my family right in the last 24 hours, especially since we do have some family connections with President Nelson. But I, I would feel remiss if I did not at least share this fun little tidbit. And now you've all learned. Another fun little fact about me is that I do in fact have a little piece of Russia in me from when I was a little three year old when our family lived there. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Well, now that, that is a fun tidbit going back a little bit to the changes President Nelson made. So I this article and the Church News came out for his birthday in early September, but it was very timely because it's also featured on the front page of the Church News right now. And I was kind of blown away. Like it took me a long time to read through this article because there are 150 plus announcements and changes in the church since President Nelson became prophet. Now, not all of them are like a groundbreaking. It's like, oh, another mission was opened, another, you know, temple announced. And it's crazy that those are like the mundane ho hum announcements because there have been so many. But I was just blown away at how much change has happened now. I did a post on my socials about kind of like the top 10 changes in my opinion that have happened in his lifetime. And I did notice it really was very front loaded in his ministry. 2018 is when he took over and 2018 to 2019 is where he really crammed in the most changes. Some of them took several years to come to fruition and to really see a lot of the evolution happened. But a lot of it happened in just the first couple years of his ministry. I don't know, maybe he knew that he was on borrowed time and he was just. He had a job and a mission to accomplish before he left this earth and so he wanted to make sure it happened before he died. But some of the things that happened was like for example, we called Elder Gong and Elder Suarez and even that is significant because these are the first members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles that are not Anglo Saxon or that are not of like Caucasian origin. You've got Elder Suarez from Brazil and then Elder Gong is an American himself, but is of Korean ancestry. And so it is just fascinating. You know, it's exciting to see this new diversity in the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. You've got ministering that replaces visiting and home teaching for April conference. And then in June they announced that a new hymn book is going to come out. Now that was a big announcement at the time. And it wasn't until 2024 that we started to see the actual fruition of that when the first hymn started coming out. And now I think we're at like 60 hymns, something like that. And I read just today that it's going to ultimately be about 350 hymns is the new update of what it's going to be. But we can do another episode all on the hymn book because I've got opinions there. But it also talks about how there's a new Preach My Gospel released. Like that was huge news when it came out. But the funny thing about that is just a few Years later in 2023, a new edition of Preach My Gospel came out. Like two, two renditions of Preach My Gospel in his lifetime. And then this is kind of the big one. We already talked about the rebrand of the church and how they wanted to re emphasize the proper name. Of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and do away with referring to ourselves as much Mormons. And that was followed up in the October general conference with a bunch of announcements, including going from two out three hours to two hour church. And then also in. Well, in 2020, they. No, 2019, they introduced the new logo or the new symbol for the church. So it was kind of over that two year period that we had this rebrand and that was like a very controversial change. A lot of people had strong opinions about getting rid of Mormon. And because you had the I'm a Mormon campaign in the earlier 2000s, in the first Mormon moment. And so we went from really leaning into that nickname that anti Mormons had given us in the 19th century to then shying away for not shying away from it, but embracing like the full name of the church to focus on Jesus Christ. And we don't. We can do a whole episode on just that change alone. But I remember there was a lot of angst from like critics of the church and faithful members, like kind of having an identity crisis that we couldn't call ourselves Mormons anymore. Other changes were Come follow me curriculum. You had new seminary curriculum aligning with Come follow me. In April, you had what has been like colloquially referred to as the reversal of the exclusion policy. So in November of was it 2016, there was an initial handbook, policy update 15, 2015. Okay, thank you. That excluded children of gay and lesbian parents to have their children baptized. And then In April, in 2019, in the handbook, that was reversed again, another controversial one and pretty heavy. But FSY was a big one. And just like the youth program in general, I feel like the youth program took on so much new life. The church wanted to really like invest in fsy, taking over the E F Y program and make it available to everyone in the church. The church wanted to dissolve young men's presidencies so that the bishop and the bishopric really kind of took on that role. More hands on, which is hard for bishops. But I do think has had some really strong impacts on like youth role models. The young women's theme has been reamped, revamped. The young women's classes have been changed. And the ages at which you go into young women's and young men's has changed. In May of that year, the waiting period for temple ceilings after a civil marriage is discontinued. What that means is before, if you got civilly married outside of the temple, you had to wait one year before you were allowed to get sealed in the temple. Now President Nelson said we are going to do away with that so you can have a civil marriage outside the temple and immediately go get sealed if you would like. And that one again, like felt really prophetic because then the next year in 2020, we had Covid and a lot of people had to get civilly married because they weren't able to do temple ceilings. With the temples closed, I could go on and on. But I think for me, the biggest changes that President Nelson has made has really focused on the temple, the number of temples being built. He's announced 200 temples, which is insane, and the most temples anyone, any prophet has ever announced in this dispensation. And the fact that he also made so many changes to the temple. And that is the hardest part for me to deal with. So in 2019, he made the first changes. In January of 2019, the first presidency releases statement on temples. And that is the understatement slash euphemism of the century. What that really is, is the first Presidency was not, was not acknowledging, slash acknowledging that yes, changes have been made to the temple endowment. And that was the first time significant temple changes had happened in quite a few years. I mean, we had had new films introduced, I believe in around 2014, but this was a huge revision of the text of the endowment or like the presentation of the endowment. It was drastically cut down and language was altered. A lot of women felt like it addressed some concerns of exclusion that they felt in the temple. And that one was hard for me because I love the temple. And so changing the temple. I'm just a traditionalist and a purist. So that was like a wrestle for me trying to like grasp with my testimony. President Nelson and I came out believing that this really is what has to happen. And I'm so glad that he's our prophet. But then again in 2023, in February of 2023, and then again in August 2024, I believe is when they had additional revisions to the endowment. So he's done a lot of like praying and grappling and working with his counselors, with the Quorum of the twelve, with the temple department to determine like what the world needs right now and like what revelation we need to be able to decide still this very sacred ceremony with these sacred principles, these eternal covenants, how can we better present it and articulate this in a way that's going to come across different educational levels, different cultural backgrounds? And I think that he has done that. I think he's been successful in creating a more positive first time temple Experience for so many people. But then on top of just the endowment changes have been the clothing changes. I believe it was in 2019 as well that they made adjustments to the ceremonial clothing. It was either in 2019 or in 2020. Ah, here we go. January 2020 adjustments are made to the ceremonial temple clothing. And that was crazy too. I don't, I have no idea the last time that the ceremonial clothing was updated, but, but this was new. And then of course, in 2024, they announced new garment changes where we have the tank top or the open sleeve garment. So just all around, like for me, it's been this, this man has been a temple builder and he's been a temple innovator and he has been a temple revelator. He has been actively seeking revelation on how we bring the temple to the Latter Day Saints and how we bring Latter Day Saints to the temple. And I think it's been fabulous. Do you guys have thoughts on President Nelson's change campaign? [00:33:54] Speaker C: I'm just surprised he didn't build a temple in Antarctica. Seems like that was the only place that he didn't announce a temple was going to be built. I'll just say briefly and then I'll let Neil have a word. I agree with you, Jasmine, that President Nelson as a temple builder is something that his legacy will be defined by. I will even go a step further and say as a Latter Day Saint, I think Russell M. Nelson focusing on temple building is evidence that he is the rightful successor to the prophet Joseph Smith and that he holds the keys of the dispensation. Because Joseph Smith was a temple builder, Brigham Young was a temple builder. Prophets who hold the sealing keys are temple builders. And with the wonderful resources and finances that the church is blessed with today, President Nelson has executed his prophetic duty to be a temple builder. And that to me, he's accelerated that. And that to me is further confirmation to my mind that of the different successor claimants that have been made over the years to Joseph Smith's prophetic authority or legitimacy, that indeed it rested in the hands of Russell and Nelson. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Hear, hear. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I was just going to comment on how, you know, we talk about how there was so much change, but it really was, it was like front loaded like you said. And just you briefly reviewing all of that, it, it kind of took like 2018 and 2019 feel like so long ago now. And back then it just felt like everything was happening at like this breakneck pace and you felt like really disoriented all the time because things were changing. Constantly. And you know, we're all trying to keep up with this nearly 100 year old man because he's just like, yeah, boom, boom, boom, we're going. But you know, you know, and then things settle down. Right? And I, I think that that's a good thing because I think it's given people time to get adjusted and used to a lot of the changes to the point where like, I had kind of forgotten that some of those things were newish, that they were changes that had been made in the last few years because they've just kind of become normal. But I, I just also think like, he, he has had a, a big part of his legacy is absolutely temple building. But you know, he led the church through a unique, a really unique time and situation with COVID 19 and you know, that was to have a global pandemic happen while you are the head of the church. And like you already talked about Jasmine, the fact that it was a physician, someone, you know, a surgeon, someone with medical training and expertise and background at the time is extraordinary. But, you know, he had, you know, six years is not a long time to be leading the church in the grand scheme of things. He wasn't, he wasn't Brigham Young, right, who led the church for like, what was it, 30, 32 years, 33 years? He only had six years. But he accomplished a lot in that time. And it was a uniquely challenging six years at a uniquely challenging time in this world. And what you, one thing I think you picked up from a lot of what he was doing was a sense of urgency, right? And he would say things that could startle you about like the how soon Jesus is coming again. It's like he, he would, he would be like, hey, this is, this is happening. [00:37:44] Speaker C: Time is running out. [00:37:46] Speaker B: He famous time is running out. Yeah. And some of that urgency might have been, hey, I don't know how much time I've got, but there's a lot that needs to be done. But some of that urgency may be. I don't know how much time the world has. And there's a lot that needs to get done, right? Temple building is something that needs to be done before the second Coming. Getting these covenants and these blessings, the opportunity to receive them at least, obviously we know not everybody's going to take them, but the opportunity to receive them, at least getting them out to, to as much of the world as possible before time's up, right, is, it's important, it's urgent. And, and you see that in, in the priorities of the church under his leadership. [00:38:28] Speaker A: It's so true. And I, I, like you said, some of these changes, like, feel so normal now because so much has happened, but there is a lot of urgency. I remember especially early on, he emphasized the second coming a lot. And I haven't heard it as much in his later talks, but he definitely talked about like, it will not be possible to survive in the coming days without the constant guided companionship of the Holy Ghost and, you know, prepare for the second coming. It is coming soon. And he created so much urgency and I'm so grateful that he did. I feel like we as a church have tried to step up to that. But going through that whole list of changes, I didn't even know all of those changes had happened. And I generally consider myself fairly plugged into this kind of stuff. And yet I was going through and I read one about Anchorage, Alaska. Like, they made an announcement that the Anchorage, Alaska temple was going to be renovated and relocated. And I'm like, what? When did that happen? And so I went and like, read the article and so it's kind of nice to go down memory lane and like, learn more about these announcements. That just went under my radar. And in the case of Anchorage, Alaska, it was one of the little temples from the late 90s, early 2000s from President Hinkley. And so it was really, really small. In fact, it was smaller than the adjacent stake center that was in like the lot right next to it. When you look at an aerial map, you're like, it's, it's just this tiny little temple and then there's a regular sized steak center. And so when I saw that plot map, I'm like, oh, that's, that's why they're moving it. So they were going to relocate the temple to where the Stake center currently is so that they could make a bigger temple. And so it really isn't like, I mean, it is dramatic, but it's just moving over to where the Stake center is. But still, I'd never heard of like a relocation of a temple before. So going through that list was just a great opportunity to learn more about his life that I didn't even know happened before. If anyone wants to learn more, we'll leave the link in the description, but it's on the Church News. It's on the front page of the Church News right now. [00:40:15] Speaker C: May I just say before we wrap up this point on the topic of changes in the, in the temple endowment and other adjustments and so forth, as a Hebraist, it warms my little heart that President Nelson corrected the pronunciation of Elohim. Thank you very much. In the presentation of the endowment. And so I'm glad that we have a prophet who is a, shall we say, sensitively attuned to these little things that nerds like me notice. But you know, President Nelson, of course, would pepper in little Hebrew or Greek words or phrases in his sermons. And so it's something that he was attuned to. So that just kind of warmed my heart, as well as more explicit quotations from like the book of Abraham and the book of Moses. So orienting the pearl of great price towards the Temple, which is where it belongs, that was a very meaningful change for me. That I appreciated. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I was just going to add, you know, your point on being attuned to the Hebrew. Right. One of his banger talks, like I was talking about earlier, Let God Prevail was all about the, the Hebrew meaning of Israel. Right. So, yeah, he, he was very attuned to that. He. Well, not only was he attuned to that, but he talked to scholars about that sort of stuff. Right. He talked to Hebrais who gave him input and feedback on what things meant. [00:41:36] Speaker C: And you might want to say, Neil, he was trying to inform the saints about good scholarship out there. Sorry, that's a little shameless, but. No, it's true though. And the legacy of Joshua Satius lives on. He's the guy that taught Joseph Smith Hebrew in Kirtland. And it pleases me to see modern prophets to do as well, taking advantage of academic resources that can inform their teaching in valuable ways. [00:42:01] Speaker A: I always appreciated that about President Nelson, his willingness and interest in engaging in antiquity and his emphasis that the temple is ancient. And that's something I'm personally passionate about. And that's not to say that, you know, Abraham and Moses were doing the endowment ceremony, like the way we do it today in the temple. But it is to say that what Joseph Smith revealed, I do believe has ancient underpinnings. And so it just always was great to hear that reaffirmed that this isn't a fabrication of a 19th century Joseph Smith. This is revelation from God that is drawing on biblical archetypes and is something that we can, you know, we should study the ancient world. [00:42:37] Speaker C: Hear, hear, Jasmine. [00:42:40] Speaker A: Well, on that note, any other final thoughts on President Nelson himself? Okay, let's shift over then to the other tragic event that happened today. So the President Nelson passing was obviously sad but somewhat happy because he lived a good life and you know, he, he was a very old person, but Today, right on the heels of the announcement that President Nelson had passed, as Latter Day Saints are mourning that loss, we get news that there's been a tragic shooting in Michigan, in Grand Blanc, Michigan, at a Latter Day Saint church during sacrament meeting. Now, we have very limited information still at this point. The news is still unfolding and we're not going to speculate, but from, you know, the reports we've been hearing and seeing on online, it seems what happened is that an individual drove his truck into the church, began shooting at members, and several were in many. Several were injured. About nine or eight or nine were injured and a couple were killed, including the shooter himself. It sounds from the reports I've been hearing that the counselor actually in the bishopric seems to have been armed and so was able to engage in a fight with this perpetrator before shooting him down. So absolutely heartbreaking. That just shook me. And we've had a lot of tragedies lately. We've had the Charlie Kirk shooting. We've had shooting of a Catholic church recently. We've had just like natural disasters going on. But nothing really shook me like this did because it just is so close to home. I mean, the Charlie Kirk shooting was close to home in our backyard. This one was in Michigan. But it feels spiritually close to home because this was one of us. I mean, you think about the people in your own ward being in that situation, or you being in that situation, your family being in that situation, your bishopric, and it just. It breaks me. What were you guys initial reactions? [00:44:34] Speaker C: Go ahead, Neil. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Well, so obviously, like, horrified, right. And devastated about what happened. And, you know, the news has been unfolding, and so it's. It was hard to know the seriousness of it initially. Like, I think the first thing I heard was that there was a fire at a church building, and there has been arson happening at Latter Day Saint church buildings way more frequently than there should be. Right. Over the last few years. And so that initial news was kind of like, that's unfortunate that happened again. And it's a Sunday morning, so maybe there's a greater likelihood people were in there when it happened. Whereas usually it's been like on a weekday or whatever, and. And it's been an empty building. But so initially I wasn't sure how to react. But then as more information became available, it was like, no, okay, A guy literally rammed his car into the walls. Open fired on congregants. Who, you know, the building was full of people. Open fired on congregants. Set, set, set it on fire like this is like a, a multi pronged attack, if you will, on the on. And we don't know anything about the, like what the motive was, whether it was animus towards Latter Day Saints specifically or what was going on here. But that really doesn't matter, right? This is a horrific act. And to have it come, like you mentioned, Jasmine, like the Charlie Kirk one feels close to home because it's literally geographically for us, at least for the three of us and for many, many other Latter Day Saints, right? It's literally close to home. I went to uvu. I was a student there for a number of years. And so to see, to have seen the names of buildings and scenes from that campus all over international news and with the headlines about Charlie Kirk really impacted me in a way that these kinds of events don't always. I mean, they still impact me, but it uniquely impacted me. And then a few weeks later to have it happen to fellow Latter Day Saints, fellow brothers and sisters in the church are directly attacked like this and you know, the violence impacting our community on, on both occasions in, in specific ways, it was, yeah, it, it's just leaves speechless. Right. Like, I just, I don't even know what to say about it. In, in, in both of these situations, there are families that have lost loved ones, there are children that are, you know, now without parents and things like that. And it's just, it's awful. [00:47:30] Speaker C: The thing that got me was when I read one report that reportedly children were among the victims, some of whom were taken in critical condition of the hospital. There was one woman, she was interviewed by the local news. She was a witness to the attack. And she specifically said something to the effect of, like, I was so scared for my primary children because I guess she probably was a primary teacher. That was a gut punch for me. Right, to consider that. And of course, this comes, Jasmine mentioned, this comes on the heel of two children who were murdered during Mass, no less, another religious service, sacrament meeting and Mass. Two children murdered at the Church of the Annunciation in Minneapolis just, just a few weeks ago. Right. So it's difficult times. I was talking to my wife about it this afternoon and she says, does anybody else kind of feel like we're living in like, Book of Helaman Gadian robbers times, like, you know, where there's all these reports of political violence and so much interpersonal hatred going on? It's deeply concerning on a certain level. Right. I agree with Utah Governor Spencer Cox when he was like, our country's sick right now. The fact that like, we just have what seems like to be an orgy of violence happening with total disregard for human life. Not only that, but the. The. The impulse to, like, want to jump on the bandwagon of, I think the shooter was a part of this other political tribe that I'm opposed to or whatever. So I'm going to point the fingers. I'm already seeing it now. This guy must have been with this political group or he must have been politically affiliated that way, or, you know, and just like both sides are screaming at each other, we don't have all the facts right now. I have the AP up right now. The AP is saying the motive is not yet clear. Authorities did not provide any additional details about the suspect, including whether he's a member of the church or not. Right. So just investigations unfolding. We'll find out in due time. It's times like these where it's best to be prayerful, to be humble and vigilant at the same time and not jump to these conclusions and don't jump to just screaming at each other. This is already enough of a traumatic event. We can come together and mourn together and let the facts come out, and then we can respond accordingly once we have a full picture of what's happening here. So really sad to see this cycle happening just within the last couple weeks. Right. And to see this all playing out here. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Well, I think this is a really interesting use case because like you said, during the Charlie Kirk shooting, there was so much, oh, he was with this tribe. No, he was with this tribe. And it's trying to so desperately want it to be not your group, but the other group's fault. And even in that. Even as it became more clear that, okay, this person was probably an exmo, it just. I felt so fatigued of it all and just feeling like it's not anyone's fault. It's not a specific group's fault. And attributing fault to perpetrator's fault. Yeah, it's that individual's fault. And. And here where we have a very. We don't know what the motive is yet either. We don't know what in group, out. Group they in, but clearly this was perpetrated against Latter Day Saints. And so as Latter Day Saints, we would be in a position to feel very. We could feel very justified in being like, oh, it's their fault. We're. We're the ones being just so persecuted, so attacked. This is completely unfair. It's their fault. But at the end of the day, like, I'm just still left feeling broken. Like, I'm just still feeling like I don't care whose fault it is. I, I just want it to stop and I want the healing to begin and I just want to start praying for those families that, that are suffering so intensely right now. And so I, I really just looked to President Nelson when he, in his Time article and in his Peacemakers Needed Talk, talked about how we need so much love in this world and so much empathy and not enmity and no more hate. And honestly, okay, I'm, I'm even going to shout out, yesterday at the Faith Matters conference, Patrick Mason talked about being peacemakers. And I thought he did a pretty decent job saying, like, yeah, if you want to know how people are feeling who loved Charlie Kirk, don't go to msnbc. And if you want to feel and understand how progressives and liberals are feeling in this country right now, don't go to Fox News. Like, we all need to do a better job of learning and listening about where we're all coming from. And we need to say no to enmity. We need to say no to hate. We really, our strength is going to be in unifying, even as we have differences. And I have differences with Patrick Mason, but I really did appreciate him being willing to say that. And, and I believe in. [00:52:01] Speaker C: Since you mentioned Jasmine, I'll read President Nelson's Peacemakers Needed. If you are serious about helping together Israel and about building relationships that will last through the eternities now, and it's italicized for emphasis. Now is the time to lay aside bitterness. Now is the time to cease insisting that it is your way or no way. Now is the time to stop doing things that will make others walk on eggshells for fear of upsetting you. Now is the time to bury your weapons of war. If your verbal arsenal is filled with insults and accusations, now is the time to put them away. You will arise as spiritually strong men or women in Christ. That line about now is the time to bury your weapons of war. And in the talk he references, of course, the anti Nephi Lehi from the Book of Mormon. I feel like that in an immediate response to tragedy like this, regardless of whether it's Latter Day Saints or Catholics or whoever the victims may be, conservatives, liberals, whatever, I think that should be your first reaction is don't pick up your metaphorical weapons of war and start a witch hunt on I'm going to attack my ideological enemy and blame them as being responsible for this. Until you have all the facts, until you're able to clearly see what motive was and then you can have those kinds of conversations about how do we address these problems. Right. But if we're going to take President Nelson seriously here and honor his legacy, we don't want to vilify people and we don't want to knee jerk reaction, hate the other side that we think might be responsible for a tragedy because we just naturally are suspicious of them or they're horrible people and they must of course, be the one who have done this. Let, let justice take its course. Let the facts come out. We can have the difficult conversations when they need to arise. But this should be, I think, our primary reaction going forward. This peacemakers needed conference talk. Oh, I see. Jasmine, you have the statement from the church up there. I'm curious if you want to read that for us. [00:54:02] Speaker A: I figured we could bring this up too. So the church made an official statement this morning, which is very unexpected for what had just happened. It's fairly customary for church headquarters when a prophet dies to really just focus on that event and to let all other news just kind of take a back seat for a few days while they, you know, mourn and celebrate the prophet's life. And yet obviously the church couldn't ignore this. This was just so pressing and acute and awful. So they made a statement this morning saying that a tragic act of violence occurred today at a chapel of the Jesus, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Grand Blanc, Michigan. During Sunday worship services, a gunman opened fire and early reports indicate that multiple individuals were injured. We ask for cooperation with local authorities as details become available. The church is in communication with local law enforcement as the investigation continues and as we receive updates on the condition of those affected, we offer thanks to the emergency responders who are assisting victims and families. We are deeply grateful for the outpouring of prayers and concern from so many people around the world. In moments of sorrow and uncertainty, we find strength and comfort through our faith in Jesus Christ. Places of worship are meant to be sanctuaries of peacemaking, prayer and connection. We pray for peace and healing for all those involved. Now, Sarah Allen in the comments mentioned that some early reports are saying that two more bodies were found in the rubble of the burnt building from the fire as well. So the victim count is increasing from even this statement that was made. But it just hurts. It is so tragic. And like you said, we just need so much more peacemaking. As recently, all of us got to go see an early screening of Angel Studios film Truth and Treason. And that's about Helmut Huebner. A Latter day saint who was kind of a Nazi resistance fighter in the early days and paid the price for it. And that film, I was deeply affected by that film. I thought it was. It was well done, it was emotionally impactful, and it just got me thinking so much about our days today and how it takes so much bravery to push back against a lot of evil. But how ultimate. But what that film did is it depicted the Nazis not as just black and white bad guys, but as people doing monstrous things who would also go home and be loving husbands and fathers and having tight family connections and wanting to stand up for what was right. And this was what they believed was right in some cases. And it's just. It just is so morally complicated and emotionally complicated to process that. And it just makes me feel that, like everyone, no matter what your value system is, no matter what your ideology is, no matter how virtuous you think your belief system is, we all just need to be so much kinder and so much more gracious and forgiving and loving because ultimately we're all, all of us are sinners, all of us are, are fallen. And so when it comes to tragedies like this and trying to find the bad guy and trying to find meaning in blaming it on someone, ultimately we're gonna meet our maker. And he's not gonna ask us about what that guy did to you or what this system did to you. What he's gonna ask us is how we lived our lives, did we love our fellow man in the face of just devastating tragedy? And, and so I'm, I'm trying to do that, but some days it's hard. [00:57:17] Speaker C: Typically in the case of, like, defensive warfare, it still is never seen as, like, the optimal response. Right. It's, it's the gospel of Jesus Christ in his teachings, that sort of Book of Mormon prophets, especially Mormon, who witnesses the, the genocide and annihilation of his people. Right? He emphasizes it's by turning to Christ and finding light and healing through him that can resolve these sorts of conflicts, both interpersonal and nationwide. So maybe that would be a good source to turn to in troubling times. Like, these are the words of ancient prophets from the Book of Mormon to give us, to give us a sense of peace and guidance as we navigate these feelings in tough situations. [00:57:59] Speaker A: And I just want to say something for our people listening on the live stream. I apologize for technical difficulties. I tried to press stop screen sharing and I ended the live stream. So I restarted it. So if there's a glitch there, please Bear with us. It should be now resuming. [00:58:13] Speaker B: So to Stephen's point, one thing that's been on my mind a lot today is last week I gave, I'm the Sunday school teacher. I'm the gospel document teacher in our ward. And so last week I gave this lesson and I covered sections, doctrine covenant, section 98. And already, you know, in, in the context of that lesson, I was already, it was coming on the heels of the Charlie Kirk shooting. And you know, this is the context of Doctrine Covenants 98, right. Is the saints in Missouri, 1833, they've been driven from their homes, they've endured violence and you know, they've, they've been quite literally attacked and, and physically beaten. They're, they've, they were forced out of their homes, like I said, property was destroyed and burned, things like that. And you know, any other time I would maybe have struggled to know, like, well, what does any of this mean for us today? Right? But man, like, it feels very relevant to the way we're living today. And you know, Stephen, you were talking about how, you know, violence and things like that and retaliation. Yeah, that can be justified, but it's not the preferred option. And that comes through really, really clear in section 98. I was struck by the fact that before the Lord even gets to explaining, okay, these are the circumstances in which it's okay for you to retaliate. [00:59:52] Speaker C: He. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Spends time talking about the law of the land, the Constitution, right? And the message is kind of like, lean on, befriend the Constitution is what he says. But, you know, I, I take that to mean he's telling the saints, legal recourse, go to your legal recourse first. Right? But that's also where we get this famous statement. Well, famous, this really quotable, highly quoted scripture, right? That in doctrine covenants says 98, verse 16, renounce war and proclaim peace. Right? And there's this, there's this urging of, of the Saints to, to, to sue for peace. And, and a few sections later, section 105, after the Zion's camp and everything has happened, the Lord tells him again, sue for peace, do everything you can to make amends and, and just peaceful resolution of all this stuff, right? And then it's only after the Lord's told him all that, right? In section 98, proclaim peace, renounce war. He tells them to follow after every word. Let's see, what does it say in verse? I think it's 11. [01:01:10] Speaker C: DNC 98. [01:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God. So follow prophets, follow the law, follow prophets, renounce war, proclaim peace. And then after all of that, it's okay if you're attacked. And if you're attacked and attacked and attacked right, then it's okay to retaliate and defend yourself. But first you have to like, endure. And so there really is the set, like, how do we heal? How do we, how do we, how do we try to like, create a better world in circumstances like this? It's prioritizing peace. And I mean, I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say we need to apply the instructions of DNC 98 really rigidly and literally count how many times like someone attacks us before we respond or whatever. But I think the overall point is we, we emphasize making amends. You know, we, we emphasize peace and peaceful resolution. We emphasize legal recourse when necessary, and we, we only resort to violence in self defense when it's absolutely necessary. Right. And I think that, like, that whole section, I think is just really relevant to the world we find ourselves in right now and the circumstances and things that are going on and. Yeah. So anyway, those are some thoughts for something, I guess. [01:02:45] Speaker C: Oh, I think you're on mute, Jasmine. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Thank you. One thing I thought was interesting was President Trump. We talked about how he tweeted about President Nelson's passing, but he also did tweet about the, the tragedy that happened today. And what I thought was interesting about what he said was that he says, I've been briefed on the horrendous shooting that took place at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The FBI was on the scene. We're leading an investigation. There's still a lot to learn. This appears to be yet another targeted attack on Christians in the United States of America. So, so couple things about that. First, he used the full name of the church, which, you know, points for him for that. But then he also called us to Christian denomination, which I have to give credit where credit is due. And I appreciate that he did that because on X and Twitter and everywhere else, something I've been seeing a lot of is people saying, don't call this an attack on a Christian church because Mormons aren't Christian. And I don't know that that just. It hurts a little more this time. I am so used to people calling me a cult, and I'm so used to people telling me I'm not Christian. I'm so used to it. But in the face of a tragedy like this, and for people to say, hey, we're really hurt. This seems to be an attack on Christianity, or, this is so sad that someone would attack a Christian church like this. And for people to say, you're not allowed to say that you're not Christian in the face of just feels very harsh and feels very in poor taste at the very least. And so I appreciate President Trump acknowledging the Christianity of our religion. But also, Robert P. George made a tweet who. That I appreciated as well, saying, catholic and Protestant friends, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are today mourning the death of their beloved leader, President Nelson. At the same time, they're in shock at a murderous assault at a church in Michigan. This is no time for theological disputations. The only thing we should be saying right now is that we stand in loving solidarity with you, dear brothers and sisters. And I really, that. That warmed my heart. I really appreciated that sentiment, that olive leaf of saying, even if we disagree about if they're Christian or not, like, now is just not the time. Like, if we truly are Christian, we should just be loving right now. And so I agree. [01:04:59] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. I had the same reaction when I saw that. I'll just say, I won't belabor the point, but I had the similar reaction, like, well, they're not really Christians, so you can't. It's like, come on, dude. Like, the bodies aren't even cold yet and you're already getting in the actually, they're not Christians deal. It's like, this is so not the time or place to be adjudicating that. And so I am grateful for those who have stood up for us, if you will. And it's, it's nice to see that we do have some allies out there, at least, I suppose, that will at least kind of stand up for us like that. [01:05:31] Speaker B: My, my one caveat there is, I do worry a little bit that I, I think some of the people like President Trump, who are saying this is an attack on Christianity are doing it more so for political reasons than any real, like, yeah, Latter Day Saints are our fellow Christians kind of thing. They, they want to push a narrative about this that, that frames it as part of this larger cultural and political moment. And obviously it is to some extent going to be interconnected to that in some ways. But they want to push this larger narrative that Christianity is under attack. And I don't particularly appreciate that. I, you know, I don't really care which side of the political spectrum you're on. I don't like taking a tragedy like this and trying to push an agenda, politicizing it. [01:06:24] Speaker C: That's a good point, Neil. Yeah, that's good to keep in mind. I agree. [01:06:30] Speaker A: Well, all things considered, this has been a really heavy day. I've felt like a heavy heart. I've been really stressed today and so it's been helpful for me to just have this discussion. But for those of you still struggling, reach out to people. Don't be alone. And just know that we're all, all struggling too. It's been rough. For those who want to learn more about President Nelson's life, I would recommend his biography, Russell M Or Insights from a Prophet's Life by Russell M. Nelson by Sherry D. Excellent book. Yeah, Stephen's read it. It's great. [01:07:03] Speaker C: Pairs well with this teachings of Russell M. Nelson. They go well together. [01:07:07] Speaker A: And then as far as the shooting goes, I mean, we'll get more information from new sources as we learn more. So in the words of President Nelson, anger never persuades. Hostility never heals. Contention never leads to lasting solutions. God bless everyone. Let's have prayers for the family and we will see you next time.